E030: Learning from Volunteer Management

This is the world of work podcast with James and James, hi. This is all right, onto the podcast.

Hello everyone. This is James, and this is Jane, and here we are again with another episode of The World of Work podcast. What we're talking about today. Jane, well, I'm pretty excited today. Are you? I am a little bit excited, guys, we are going to talk something about something that's something very close to my heart. As you, as most listeners, know, we come from very different backgrounds. Yeah, I come from the nonprofit sector and a couple of decades there, whereas you come from the Financial Services. Yeah, that's right, highly corporate. And so today we we've mentioned in a couple of episodes about the how there's so many similarities between

the nonprofit sector, and actually, what can you learn about it? And today we're going to be talking to someone who specializes in volunteer management, okay, and asking some questions about, what do you do, and how do you you manage and engage and motivate people when you aren't paying them? Yeah? Okay, and they don't have to show up, right? Yeah. And that's kind of important in terms of the context of the series that we're in, because we're focusing on behaviors. And obviously the behaviors of volunteers are different, potentially, from the behaviors of people that you pay in your organization, right? Yeah. So we've had, we've had a few episodes now, which actually loads of you have listened to around how to change behaviors, and about how you build trust, and about habitation and goal setting and things like that. Yeah. And really, this is about putting a different slot in it, and saying, You know what, when you don't have the normal levers that we're also relying on wages, like bonuses, things like that. How do you do it? How do you engage people to change their behavior? Well,

we've got today certainly is creative. I should also add that I'm super excited, because this person is the reason we know each other. Yeah, that's right. So the person we've got joining us is an old, old friend of mine who's also a friend of yours and suggested that we have a chat way back when. Yeah, this so we all know who to blame. That's true. That's true. So when, when she introduces herself late in the episode, listeners, you'll be able to find out who she is. You can blame her for the creation of the world to work

podcast. Well, I'm happy about it anyway. Her name is Laura, Laura Laura Hamilton, and she's got an organization called Laura Hamilton consultant consulting that looks at this type of work. That's right. So yeah, we're gonna move on to that, but before we do probably worth mentioning to people how they can get in touch with us. Yeah, as we always do, okay, so if you want, you've got thoughts about this episode, if you want to get in touch, want to see what we're up to, there are a number of ways you can get in touch. You can email us on JJ at the WoW podcast.org you can go to our website, www dot the WoW podcast org, where you can also sign up for the WoW mail. Yes, but I would say the easiest way to get in touch with us as always, tweet, tweet at the WoW podcast. Yeah. So we're also on LinkedIn, Facebook, if you want to come find us, but those are the Twitter is where we get the most engagement, and thanks to all our Twitter Yeah. And one of the things shout out, if you do listen on iTunes, can you just press for like Review button? Because it's helpful for us in terms of visibility and all that kind of stuff. And also, I mean, it makes us feel good sometimes as well. Yeah, James, I should say listeners. James gets very, very excited every time we get a new review on iTunes, so feel free to make his day. Yeah, because he he immediately sends me texts and lets me know, maybe I'll take a little picture and text it or send it over on WhatsApp or something. Okay, great. Should we? Should we maybe introduce our guest? You've been very patiently sitting here. Let's see that. So who is it? Are we gonna give her a space to talk? Maybe. So Laura, welcome. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and what your business does. Okay, so my background is in managing volunteers. I worked as a volunteer manager within the charity sector for around 18 years, and that was with both infrastructure organizations, so like Volunteer Centers, and also, luckily, I worked for an HIV charity based in Manchester, managing their volunteer program. So

I guess I've got a really long standing interest in working with volunteers. I'm really passionate about the difference that volunteers can make in the world and the difference that volunteers make in organizations, both in terms of the impact of their work, but also in terms of how they help co create the culture within an organization. And I'm quite interested in that. I've been working freelance since 2017

so I now support mainly small and medium sized charities and organizations to improve and develop their volunteer programs, to grow their volunteer programs and offer mentoring, coaching and training for volunteer managers as well. Wow, that sounds like a lot. I'm busy. I am also a relationship therapist. Oh So, and that's something that I've been.

I've been qualifying in over the last couple of years. Just qualified back in the autumn, and it dovetails quite nicely, in a way, with this world of volunteer management, because

a lot of effective volunteer management involves building really good relationships. Okay, so I think that's also informed my understanding a little bit of how those relationships, relationships are created, and also perhaps what we can do when things go wrong. Okay, in those relationships, that sounds really interesting. We should definitely we're gonna pick that up later, because I think that relationship, especially the relationship between relationships, or the similarity between personal relationships and and whether that workplace relationship, whether it's a volunteer one, or whether it's a paid staff member is really interesting. Yeah, exciting stuff, right? Where should we start? I guess, you know, most of our conversations today, or my contributions, have been about predominantly paid individuals and organizations and some of that management and what it's like to be in those situations. I guess it might be good to start by trying to get your thoughts on what do you think's different about managing paid staff versus managing volunteers? Have you got any thoughts? So I think probably the first thing to say is, I think there's a huge amount of overlap, and there's a huge amount of similarity in terms of, if you were looking at either of those things being done well,

because I think at the end of the day, we are, we are talking about working with, building relationships with and motivating people, and that's true whether those people are paid or unpaid. Okay, I think what is different and perhaps unique about working with volunteers is that every time that person turns up, they are choosing to be there. They are there through free choice.

They're making a positive decision to be there. They're not compelled to be Yeah. And I often say, you know, when you're when you're working with volunteers, in some ways, all you have is the carrot, yeah, yeah. Okay, you know, your stick is that you could, you can potentially take away that opportunity to volunteer, yes, which is a valuable thing in itself for a lot of people, I guess, isn't it? Yeah? But a lot of the time, what we are focusing on is working with motivations and on building positive, motivating relationships, and also actually being really curious about the whole person and the other context as well in their life. And I think that's perhaps something which makes it different from how we might conceive of our relationships with paid staff? Yeah, I think we'd be more active in that curiosity with volunteers, of understanding the other contexts that they're operating in, and how those contexts relate back, sure, to the work as a volunteer that they'll be doing with our organization. So I guess following up on that in your experience, do you think that as somebody managing volunteers, you end up with a deeper relationship with them, a deeper understanding? Deeper understanding of who they are than you would maybe we've paid that, I think, a real skill for volunteer managers, and one that perhaps we undervalue, is our ability to do that with a huge number of people, what sort of and to create depth and trust quickly,

and then almost to broker so to have this deep understanding of our organization and of roles within our organization, and of what would be helpful, and combining that with an ability to very quickly gain a deep understanding of a person and be able to see where there will be a good match and a good fit within the organization. And I think one of the beauties about working with volunteers is that you do have potentially more flexibility. Okay, so actually, if you're working in an organization where there's a good culture around volunteering,

you can potentially build roles around people. I see what you mean. So you're not structured by the sort of organizational artifacts and structures. Well, in the role description, people tend to be more open to role descriptions, job design effectively and crafting. It's something that's more suitable for the person. You can you might co create that with the volunteer. I mean, in organizations I've worked in, I've often had a mixture, so I might have

roles that are more set, so that we're established and where we're, we're very clear about actually what we want and need, and there's room for tweaking and room for maneuver within them, yeah, but, you know, they're kind of established volunteer roles, and they're not set in stone, but they're, they're kind of structured, and they're documented and things within a role description, but then I would always have the flexibility that if Somebody came and they had particular skills or particular interests, and actually that fitted with our organisation's objectives or our business plan, that we can actually look at co creating a volunteer role for them. And I think that is something that's perhaps a little bit bit unique about working with volunteers. So do you think that volunteer managers get more freedom than traditional managers from their organization to have more control over how that relationship is developed. So I'm thinking, for example, if I want to give someone a pay rise, there are about five different hoops I'm going to have to jump through. Most nonprofit organizations. Chances are it won't happen. And if I so much, just want to offer them flexible working, there's usually a huge number of HR process, so I have to go.

Through to get that permission. Do you feel like volunteer managers are generally, on balance, given more freedom to do things like that?

I'm pausing because I'm not sure if there were a whole crowd of volunteer managers in the room that freedom is something, a word that they would necessarily identify with

interest. Yeah, I think they might experience it sometimes, as they're given freedom by by mistake, almost, or they're given a level of freedom because there is an absence, there is an absence of scrutiny or interest, sometimes in the volunteer program, what, what I think can be useful, though, as a volunteer manager is taking that freedom, not getting too hung up with always asking for permission, and really embracing the flexibility that that gives you, and actually embracing as well the flexibility that not being governed by legal processes and restrictions around you know, in the same way that HR is

what that gives you, is a great ability as well to offer volunteers flexibility, yeah, and also that the process shouldn't be bureaucratic. I'm not saying this happens. We have a lot of volunteer programs that are incredibly bureaucratic in this country, partly because sometimes we try and mimic an HR model. And I'd argue that isn't really a good route to go down. You want things to be you want there to be structure and for things to be well organized. And structure is necessary, you know, to support that. But actually, in terms of the person's experience, you don't want that to be about paperwork. You don't want to that to feel onerous and to be about bureaucracy. You as the as the manager, want to minimize their experience of that really and the focus should primarily be about about the person, person to person relationship, and the relationship between them and your organization's cause, and their sense of the impact and the difference that they're going to make. And I think volunteer managers can you know in in some organizations, there is a really healthy interest in in volunteering. And actually CEOs get it, and they get, you know, what helps to build a positive culture of volunteering? I think in quite a lot of organizations, there's perhaps not that much interest, or there's because there's a wrong type of interest.

But I think potentially volunteer managers can use that to their advantage. They're like Jane was saying, I think potentially you can use that freedom to your advantage. Yeah, certainly, that's always how I saw it. But you know, as as you know, anyone Laura, give me a yard and I'll go and play with well, and I think there is something to be said for, you know, like, you know, do something and apologize later, yeah, you know, albeit not something really risky in terms of people's lives, but, you know, do take a chance develop something and apologize like I'm also great fun of the pilot. I used to spend my whole, whole life talking about, why don't we just pilot this? Why don't we just test it and try it? And then my pilot, when I used to work, use the word pilot that was code to me, of well, I'm having a go at this, and if it works, I'm just gonna, you know, it's a way of people will give you permission to do stuff as a pilot. They'll never get permission, right? And in your head, it's not a pilot at all. You're like, it's gonna work, and it's gonna be brilliant, yeah? So just quick question, picking up on that, where good organizations are doing this really well. Do you ever get a sense that staff who are paid are like, the volunteers have got a better culture and kind of I wish, I wish, I wish, HR would treat the way we treat our volunteers, or is it mostly that you see it the other way around, where the staff are treated better than the volunteers, or have a better culture? That's an interesting question.

I'm not sure that I've seen it where staff are thinking the volunteers have got it better. I don't know if I've actually witnessed a situation where where people would actually say that. I think I've seen quite a lot of places where volunteers would definitely say that that staff are much more valued. Staff are given more autonomy, staff are trusted with more responsibility, invested more in terms of their development. It's interesting, isn't it, because I just, I'm thinking about an organization I used to work out with work. She's young volunteers, and I remember having a couple of conversations with staff who were of similar age to some of the volunteers. And the staff like you, spend so much more time supporting volunteers. And I had to explain to them, because the program we were running was about youth development, it was that they were also beneficiaries, and therefore that was the cause. But to the other 23 year old sitting in the room, who's the same age, they're like, Well, why am I not a beneficiary? Just because I'm being paid, you're still developing me. And that's a hard conversation, and I think it's an interesting question, though, as well, in terms of thinking about how we motivate and manage and lead paid staff, yeah, because I sometimes wonder, actually, would that benefit from more of this kind of curiosity about people, from more of this kind of attention to the different contexts that people operate within, more focus on how we communicate about impact as well, which I would say is so key to volunteer motivation, communicating about purpose, impact the difference that people. Made and encouraging people to reflect on that. I think there's, there's

also things around flexibility. So a key challenge for volunteer managers today is, you know, people's lives are much more complex. People have often juggling multiple demands. It can be, you know, caring for young children, caring for elderly parents,

paid work, volunteer work, you know there's and also the world of paid work is is much less stable. So same. When I started managing volunteers, you generally could split people into the people that are available in the evenings and the people that are available in the daytime. That is just not the same anymore, because shift work is much more common. People work in a more flexible way. People take time out from work. People to change jobs more frequently. They share childcare, definitely. Yeah. So I think one of the one of the real challenges can be you feel like you're standing on constantly shifting sands, and it's sort of navigating your way through that without it descending into chaos, yes, and it's never gonna. It's rarely going to be the number one priority in someone's life. The way their job is, because it's not also providing them with the security of people have to potentially prioritize paid work, yeah, over it. I think what happens when you're in on these shifting stands is people can sometimes think, I need to get control of this, and they drop a whole load of kind of systems and processes and procedures onto it and obligation and try and create that, yeah, and almost trying to mimic that paid staff relationship. But what we generally find is it just doesn't work. And actually, there's been a report recently and CVO interviewed, I think it was around 10,000 people who are volunteers, and surveyed them, and one of the things that they found was off putting for people about volunteering was when it starts to look too much like the formality of paid work and the kind of expectations, so they're sort of mimicking those processes and the paperwork and the procedures that are part of that and I think, and also around volunteering potentially taking up too much time. Okay, so the other thing is, you know, if you look at things like community Life Survey, the number one reason around why people say they stop volunteering is around, you know, changes in their availability, and, yeah, and lack of time. So I think, as a volunteer manager, you sort of need to be respectful of the fact that actually, this is often one of many priorities in somebody's life that will vary from individual to individual, and it will vary at different points in that person's life, yeah, length of a relationship. So in some ways, you need to be able to offer that flexibility. Otherwise you potentially will have them for a very short window of time, and then they might, then they might have to completely disengage, whereas, actually, often what you're wanting to do is create conditions with enough flexibility in them that the volunteering can sort of ebb and flow throughout their life, throughout their life journey. Yeah, or the relationship with the organization might take different forms throughout that person's life journey. And so rather than a trajectory of sort of onwards and upwards, we might think of it like a line going, you know, like we think about engagement, we might think, Oh, we start off, like, down near the bottom of a graph, and then it would be going in this straight line, going upwards around volunteering. You're much more likely to see it's almost like a river, kind of winding and that at different points in people's life, life cycle or life journey, they'll be engaging in different ways and to different extents. When you see that sport is an external, astonishing example of where we see that consistently, because we see people towards the end of their youth, starting to get volunteer training, leadership training, they start to do be active, and then they will quite often disappear. And there was, for a long time, we talked about the drop off in volunteers from, you know, where were they in their 20s, and all of that. It's like, well, that that's what they it's the same as life, right? And it's the same as work and all of those things. They're going away. And then they have children, and then they see that there's a benefit, because they want to put something back, because their kids are accessing the sport, so they come back to helping, yeah. And I think, I think we talk about it a lot. And I think the extraordinary thing is that the bit different that I think is amazing is organizations have to think far more long term. I think about the relationship with the volunteer, so be really long termist about it. Think of it as a the dream scenario is that if you're a small local club, let's go with sports clubs, because that's what I know. You could have a 40 year relationship, but that might have 20 years in the middle when you don't see them, and you have to think long term about it, because that's unlikely to be the same. Generally paid staff don't tend to work because there's a lot more options. Yeah, I sort of tend to say it's like, you know, the the voluntary might not last forever, but the relationship might last a lifetime. Yeah, and that that kind of giving, that giving back, might take different forms at different points, different points of someone's life. I was just gonna say something else

around around pleasure, okay? And I think that something that is really important around volunteering and arguably around page work as well is but we sort of can forget sometimes to give attention to it because it almost seems superficial. But actually is that it is pleasure.

Sure, yeah, and that is enjoyable. And again, this came out very clearly, actually, in the Time Well Spent surveys. You know that is, that is one of the reasons why people are likely to continue volunteering, is if it is enjoyable. Now, it's such a simple concept. In a way, it's so basic, right? But like, and I think sometimes we can almost be we

almost can feel like it trivializes it somehow to focus on enjoyment and pleasure, although we should feel guilty about enjoying something that's also meant to be doing something really good, yeah, making a difference, or how you know that it's making a difference to other people's lives, and it's about giving, but actually also that that pleasure and enjoyment, from the point of view of the volunteer, is really key and so that, then, actually, at the time, got me thinking about, Yeah, where is that in paid work as well? It's a really great question. It makes me think I wonder if you looked at what good volunteer managers are trying to do to continue their engagement of their volunteers, and you applied it to paid staff. Ultimately, I suspect you might end up seeing your retention levels go up. Yeah. The only difference is, as a volunteer, there is less reason for me to stay if I'm not happy. Yeah, right. To me, if you're a paid staff, there are other reasons I might stick it out, because I like the people, because I'm getting paid well, because it feels job secure, because the benefits

are good, whereas as a volunteer, I suspect there's a lot less of that, and it's a lot more, I just know I'm not putting up. But what that might do is then tell HR managers of paid staff, well, hang on, but do you really want your staff there because of those reasons, or do you want them because they want to be there because? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world, and I appreciate this is, I'm huge, lucky to be even close to the situation. But wouldn't it be a wonderful world? Because the work that we did was the work that we wanted to do all the time well, so if you find it, you're never working again, right? That's what it is. If you find what you love and do that, then stop. It. Makes you wonder. When I was a kid, I remember my dad saying, Sorry, dad, but I remember my dad saying to me that, when was I going to get a real job? Yeah, right. And it makes me realize there's something in that that's almost like you we we shouldn't expect to enjoy our work. There should be, there's a duty to suffer. It's not work if it's pleasurable. Yes, exactly that sort of belief that we have, yeah, which I think is challenging.

So, so as you've been speaking through that kind of to your point, Jane, I captured some of the things that I thought were really good takeaways in terms of lessons potentially that more sort of paid organizations could take away. And my sense is that a lot of these organizations are kind of trying to do this already, but maybe not doing it as well. So I was just going to run through them. So one, one of the things you said early on that I really liked was about the importance of a depth of personal relationship, right? So building those bonds seems like a really important thing, and that's a very human connecting type of behavior. But I think in certainly my sector, a lot of leaders and managers don't, don't invest the time in and probably don't really have the skills or the comfort to do

I guess, just on that I don't think it's necessarily, and it's not necessarily about having a friendship or a friendship. It's it's about friendly enough, but not necessarily about having it doesn't mean you have to then be going out for drinks with that person, but it's about being able to sort of, within the work context, cultivate that sort of sensitivity. As well as, yeah, it's kind of like a very human type of relationship. Do you think that therefore means that it's harder for volunteer managers to maintain the boundaries between

themselves and fellow workers in inverted commas, or volunteers as opposed to paid staff who already have that context of this is work. Is it sometimes bleed. I think that's a skill you have to have to be an effective volunteer manager. I think you have to be able to navigate it's like walking a tightrope between it not slipping into just being a personal relationship,

and there being a boundary there, there being a line there, but that being different, perhaps in the level of formalization, it's almost like you don't have formalization to hide behind you, don't have bureaucracy to hide behind you. Need to be managing it on the relational level. And in some ways, it's slightly intangible, and I think that's what can make it challenging. Well, I think it's interesting. So I think that's become harder for paid staff too. Now with social media, so

I'm really interested, where do you stand on how volunteer managers, you know, if you, if your volunteers invite you to be friends on Facebook, for example, let's say, how do you manage that? And is that the same? James to you as paid managers, you know, is it still, is it still the same debate, or is it different? Does it have different context for volunteers? I think, I think it depends on the type of organization you work for, and what the culture is within that organization around those types of connections. I think that will vary, and it sometimes depends on, as well the sector you work in. Yeah, so I my the last organization I worked for.

Was it was a health and social care charity. So actually that thing around boundaries was very kind of prevalent in my mind, and we also had a lot of people who both used our services and also volunteered with us. So again, there was a blurring there around roles. So actually I was conscious that if I friended somebody on Facebook, that person was also someone who was using our services. So there was, there were additional boundary issues.

So I think it is context specific in some ways, and dependent on the culture within the organization. We have to remember as well that in a lot of organizations, they are solely staffed by volunteers, yeah? So a lot of micro and small charities, by far the majority, yeah, insane. It's like 70% Yeah. So, you know, we can talk about these boundaries, you know, these rules, but actually, if you're in an organization where it's all volunteers, how does that? How does that work? So I think I try and avoid having kind of rigid rules about it, yeah, because I think it is context specific for me personally, how I managed it, so that I had some separation between my work and my personal life. My personal life, is that I wouldn't message someone back if they sent me an invite on Facebook and and say, explain a little bit about why that was that, you know, I wasn't gonna their friend request because I also had to be mindful of what they might think.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's just interesting. Thank you. I'm going to jump on I've got another question that I wanted to tackle,

and I just wanted to try and get your thoughts. So in in paid employment, we have all these tools that we can use. You know, you said you've only got a car, you don't have a sticks. There are all the sticks in paid employment, how do you sort of manage if behaviors aren't to the level that you'd want or aren't appropriate amongst a volunteer population. Do you how do you address that? So I guess you may still have a process that's written down. A lot of organizations might call it like a problem solving process or a problem solving procedure, but the language that's used within that would generally be perhaps softer or different to what you might have in a disciplinary procedure.

And that's again, about it's about honoring that distinction, I guess, between the kind of paid employee relationship and the volunteer, voluntary relationship.

What I would say is that I think it's really, key and important that issues are addressed with volunteers, happening over time. I I see a mixture. So I think sometimes organizations can

approach things too too formally, too quickly, with volunteers not kind of having an open discussion with them about something and moving too quickly, almost to quite a formal procedure with volunteers. On the other hand, you might have organizations where

they just avoid, they just, they just do not want to address issues with volunteers, and they actually don't necessarily want to invest the time and the resource in addressing issues of volunteers or helping volunteers to improve their performance or

so, what you can sometimes see happening is that organizations just won't call that person again. They won't want ghosting.

You know? They just think, Oh, they're only a volunteer. We just don't need to involve them anymore, you know? And it happens, though, or on the other hand, you can get a situation where people feel this person is giving their time for free. I couldn't possibly find raise an issue, and there's so I'll just add this one other thing, which is around when you remember, membership organization and that person is also

your it's a complete your boss, yeah? So when they're trustee, or when you're a member organization, and they are effectively the reason you exist, there's this whole thing of, well, I should be doing it. If it's their organization. I should be, you know, somehow allowing them to be which, by the way, is nonsense, obviously, but, but you see it consistently well, they're, they're on the member council so they can. It's their organization. Yeah, crazy,

yeah, okay. Um, I had one other question for you, and then I think we'll kind of head a little bit towards the end of this. Um, obviously, with paid staff, money's, you know, held out to be a motivator, right? And that affects how organizations work. What's your view of the role of money as a motivator? And how do you motivate people where money is off the table?

Yeah, I think the issue around money, you know, money, obviously, is a driver, isn't it, in terms of us taking paid work and staying with paid work, partly because we need it in order to survive in this world. We need that financial reward. Yeah, I think something that that I'm quite that I've read a bit about over the.

Last few years is just when we're thinking about values. So actually, if we're thinking about intrinsic and extrinsic values. So intrinsic values being those ones which are kind of like around belonging and meaning, and

I guess, things like empowerment and development and extrinsic being the ones that are more about wealth,

and tell people that you've got the job title that means you're the best or whatever, yeah, just, you know, I'm head of podcasts, yeah, exactly, yeah, it's gonna be my business, quite good. And I guess you can see those, those sets of values that play in both the world of paid work and, yeah, in the world of volunteering as well, because you could have

people trying to motivate volunteers through appeals to extreme extrinsic values, not necessarily only intrinsic.

And how would appear, what would well, I guess it might be about, you know, you'll be part of a you could say you'll be part of an elite group, or you'll be, you know, things like T shirts could do that, or identities,

the role, and also symbolic, symbolic history, and I guess, also just it might be about you,

you know, you, you're more likely to get a really high paid job if you come and do this voluntary so future, deferred benefits, yeah, so I think that can happen in that world as well. I guess

I'm interested in those kind of intrinsic values, yeah, because some of the research I've read talks about the fact that if we are engaging one group of values, the other becomes kind of moves into the background, yeah. So actually, if you're receiving a lot of messages, or the culture in an organization is focused on extrinsic values, intrinsic values will move more into the background. Yeah. So I then think this is interesting when we're thinking about some of the culture we want to create in organizations and to help people work effectively together. Actually. How is that helped or hindered by appeals or communications or working a lot with what we think of people's motivations around extrinsic value? Yes. So on the one hand, we wanted to create this culture which is about all these intrinsic things, which is, and saying the charity sector that would be about, you know, about helping others, about, you know, creating a better world. And also, you would hope that within the be, you trying to create a healthy culture within the organization as well. But then, if you're appealing, if you're messaging on some level, or is, is connecting with people around more of those extrinsic things like money, yeah, status, you know, hierarchy, yeah, power, power over others, rather than power with others. The two things that are potentially at loggerheads and they're contradictory. Well, it's really interesting, because the research that I did with an organization a couple years ago with volunteers suggest that intrinsic reason, intrinsic motivations, are the reason people come and failure to meet the basic bottom level of extrinsic motivations is the reason people leave. So hygiene approach too. It's really similar to Hertzberg hygiene, which is the theory that people won't leave volunteering because they don't have the best kit, but if their basic expenses aren't being met consistently, yeah. Then no matter how happy you make them for serving their beneficiaries, they just won't stick it. Yeah. And I also think

Maslow, Maslow's a little bit dodgy. It's also interesting in terms of the time I spent report, because what that, what that showed, was around people's intention to stay was negatively impacted on by volunteering, not being well organized.

People being expected to give too much time or badly communicated shifts, last minute shifts,

constantly being let down, having to cover other people, all of those really practical stuff. The only thing I would say, just to the thing, I think what you were saying was really interesting about them coming to the foreground, yeah, and living behind interesting the number of times I have seen people who are intrinsically motivated pushed out, push that's an interesting word, because they've left by choice, but it's because they felt excluded, because a group of people who Are extrinsically motivated. They like the power. They're on regional councils, for example, or they're on working groups, and because that's what feeds them, they have failed to understand what the other volunteers want. And those other volunteers said, Well, this isn't for me anymore, because I don't recognize this. This is not why I got your values conflict, and so you end up with friction between the volunteers. And I think, I mean, it also raises that, that interesting point about how you manage and lead a team of people who will have many and varied motivations, yes, and who will be coming and giving commitments of varying lengths of time as well. So you may have, I'd say, as a volunteer manager or as a leader of volunteers you're attending.

Motivation that's happening on multiple levels as well. So you're interested in what people might call those kind of self serving motivations around you know somebody's coming. They want experience for their CV, or they want experience so they can get on a particular course, or, yeah, and so they've got personal drivers, yeah, they've got those drivers there. And you're curious about that. You're interested in those because they're going to help you shape a positive volunteering experience for that person, but you also really want to be paying attention to and cultivating

some motivation around your cause. Yes, and and they're making a difference, how they're going to be making a difference, and that is so key. And I think often people get a bit lost with this. People get lost because actually, you're having to work on multiple levels with multiple different people who are all individuals and bring a different sense of meaning. What this volunteering means to them will be so individual. So you need some team to give them your attention to really understand that and to sometimes actually help them articulate that language as well. I think that's really intra criminality. Go back to the episode James that we did around bringing people together after division, and I think there's loads of relevance. Most practical example I can give you is that when we did this research around volunteer, our group of volunteers that we were dealing with, generally the younger ones were motivated by similar things, and younger by younger we were defining those under 25 so the younger ones motivated similar things, but there was an additional motivation, which was about experience building and experience the workplace,

where that came to the fore, the volunteers that have been around for a lot longer and were in the older age brackets really struggled, because they felt that there was a division in the reasons people were there, and the piece of work that most helped was finding the bits that they both recognized and using the common language that they had both used about their experience of feeling satisfied and worthwhile and like they were doing something to make them recognize that they may be different, but they were more the same than different. And suddenly, that conversation changed instantly, because they were all in the room for the same, at least one reason, the same, yeah, I think as well. You know, just that thing of bringing a diversity of people together around a common cause is so powerful and often, in my experience, what tends to happen is that as the relationship builds with the organization, with the cause, with other volunteers and staff within the organization, the reasons why people are there shift and change.

And I think this is another, another learning really just around. We often put in a lot of I was talking to Joan about this earlier, often the start of a relationship. It's a bit like when we first are dating somebody, and we're really focused on them, we're really interested. We're kind of like, kind of on our best, and we put a lot of effort in, you know,

and then it maybe also takes a lot of our attention when things are going wrong, yeah, but in the periods in between where things are going okay, we can sort of forget to remain curious. You sort of

this is true actually, with volunteers as well. We need to kind of be curious throughout their journey with our organization, because actually, the reasons why they're there will shift and change over time. So we need opportunities, not only during the recruitment phase, where there's often intensive interest, you know, in the person and sort of scrutiny of them sometimes, but also throughout the lifetime of their involvement with our organization, and it can also lead to this tension sometimes, where volunteers that have been there more longer term can feel sometimes undervalued compared to the experience of newer recruits coming in. So we've got no we had a whole conversation with our board, and we explained it to them. We had to explain it get this terrible, but we did like your utility bills, that's exactly what you find out. There's deals on the market, on the market for, like, your broadband for half price, new customer. And it goes back to almost the biblical lost sheet moment, a lost, lost brother moment, where you're like, why is he? Hang on 20 years. And I do get that sense. And I think for me, that is an extraordinarily important lesson for people managing paid staff as well, because I have one organization that's remained nameless that I worked at referred to me as a lifer. Oh yes, and without question, it changed my perspective the organization. Because the point was, I don't need to look after you as much and worry about whether you're going to go because you won't. That language exists in the corporate world. And that conversation, that conversation, that one minute conversation, changed my entire perspective on a lifetime career, and I probably stopped you being a lifer, just I left. I left 18 months later because I suddenly thought, I don't want that yeah, I don't want to be that person. Yeah. It's also, I think, interesting around how we value people's skills. So sometimes I've seen it happen in terms of, actually, we pay stuff as well. People come in and they are going to be the person that fixes the organization and their skills that that put a very highly valued and prized and talked about a lot within the team or by the person who's recruited them, who's hired them. You know, it's a huge amount of pressure on that person as well. I don't.

It's a good practice at all, but the impact for people who've been there for a lot, there can be a thing where, actually, if somebody is there for longer and longer, we just value, we take for granted more and more invisible to value less and less. And I think we have to be so mindful of that with volunteers, because actually they are the people who can then it can a it really erode somebody's confidence over time and their sense of value within the organization, but also they can, they can be the person that just suddenly leaves, yeah, breaking this up and go, yeah.

Well, you know, I kind of think that we could talk about this for a long time, and I think we might do it again. What I thought we should probably do now is just have a quick recap on some of the things I've been making a note as we go about. Some things someone has, yeah, she's loose, to my blank face.

So I thought I'd share some of those back. And these feel like some really good takeaways to me in terms of things that people in any form of leadership or management can learn from the things that you've talked about. So I was just going to run through those quickly and quickly and then move on and start to close up the podcast here. So I've got about six or seven points, maybe a few more that I thought are worth calling out. One, depth of relationship is a power, powerful tool, in terms of a motivating factor in affecting individuals behaviors, I think, in organizations that I've worked in, that's not always an avenue that's pursued. So I think there's something powerful there, but with respect for boundaries, I think it's that approach that's important. Yeah, I absolutely. Another thing I took away was you talked about how the experience that volunteers have is hugely powerful, because they can walk away. So you want their experience to feel good. I think employee experience is an increasing phrase in the in the sort of more corporate world. So I think there's some definite crossovers there that are really interesting. I think onboarding in paid staff and the recruitment process of volunteering. I having seen both of them fail. I think the similarity, I think you could sit an HR manager and a volunteer manager down in a room, and I suspect between them, they could hatch a much better plan. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Another thing that you talked about that I really liked was around

sort of role creation, and creating roles around people. Now that feels like it's perhaps a little bit more common in some of the volunteer organizations, I think the more corporate world aspires towards that, but doesn't always have a freedom and ability to do it. But I think that shift towards a sort of more agile capability type management processes, something people want to do. I thought the stuff you said about the flexibility and agility of volunteers in terms of other commitments is something that I've seen coming through in the corporate world more. And people want to be more agile, but they're not very good at it. But I think there's some really good stuff in there. I think you called out a point that people volunteer because they enjoy what they do. So I think that piece around pleasure is something that's really important. And I think people forget that in the corporate world, that though you're paying somebody, you still probably would get more out of them and better have a better experience if they enjoyed what they do. And it's got to be nicer from both perspectives to manage people who want to be there, right? I mean, whether you're a volunteer manager or you're you're a standard manager in a paid organization, managing people who want to be in the room is a nice thing. You'll have a better customer experience. Definitely.

The next thing I thought was interesting was you talked, sort of, in my words, reinterpreting your words, but you talked a little bit about, sort of motivation through recognition. So we talked about intrinsic and extrinsic, but there was a piece around you sort of create value through recognition of your volunteers in a way that doesn't always happen. So I think that sort of, I guess the recognition as a motivating factor, feels like it's maybe more prevalent. Can I ask one question? Last question, what, Laura, what's been the most successful recognition tool or reward tool that you've seen used? I think,

I think it's when it's linked to impact. For me, in organization I used to work for. We owned an ARD for ages about whether to have volunteer awards. Okay, and in the end, we went with having annual volunteer awards.

But what we really emphasized, and what was at the heart of it, was the sense of the individual's impact, the difference that they have made to the extent that we sent, some reason, the nominations that we received to the all the volunteers that had been nominated, so that they got that sense of others words about them. And I think there's lots of different ways you can recognize volunteers, you know, and and reward volunteers, but I would, I would argue it, should always, in some ways, be linked to impact yeah and to the difference that people make. Yeah, good advice, whether that's a sweatshirt or, you know, I think the conversation that you have around if you're giving someone a sweatshirt or a pin or whatever, I think it shouldn't just be thanks for 10 years service. Yes, you know, you need to be vividly painting a picture of the different person's face through their actions well and.

It's about. So for me, it's about because it's interesting. You do Awards, which I'm I'm assuming, with public facing, I think there is a public acknowledgement of we trust this person, this person is delivering something we can't do without them. And it's that bit that I think you know. So for young people, that sweatshirt, because it visibly puts them, they put it on and and they are recognized by the people at the event as as key, cool.

So, yeah, so, so I think that's about piece around motivations really powerful. We talked about extrinsic and intrinsic motivators, and I thought, I thought it was great to reflect on both of those through the lens of volunteers, because I think in paid organizations, people often get hung up on things like job titles that are maybe more formal, or salaries or things like that, but there are lots of proxies that you can use to achieve both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, which is interesting. And the last thing that I thought was really interesting was about the need to stay in touch with your volunteers over their life cycle, as they develop. And I think that's something that we don't do in organizations, or at least in my experience, not as much sort of checking in and tracking, and also after they leave. I think this is an interesting thing about the point where people leave a job, for example, and I'm curious about as well in the charity sector, because I often think former employees, you know, how much attention is paid to that ongoing relationship after some degrees and their relationship with your cause, yeah, and it's the same with, you know, with volunteers, it's like, if somebody leaves as a volunteer,

how do you recognize that there may still be a relationship with your cause? And how do you support them to to move into the realm of being a donor or to being an advocate for your organization, or even just there's very informal ways that we all the word of mouth. We all talk to our friends and family about our experiences volunteering. I'm See, I'm astonished by this, because I have a living relationship with every organization that I've ever worked with, to the point where I've got a text on my phone from two days ago, which is a picture of a team none of whom I ever worked with, but who know me from having worked there, saying, Oh, we're celebrating the season, and that's so when people tell you, but it's a nosy It's baffling to me when people tell me that doesn't happen because, because the relationship I have with those organizations is part of who I am. But that's probably because I over emotionalized work, right? Another person is an ambassador, and I think this is probably the same, you know, in the corporate world as well. That corporate world as well, that person continues, for better or worse, to be talk, you know, to talk about your organization and to share about it on an ongoing basis. And I think so that point at which people exit from a role,

I think we need, often, more resource and more more support, I guess, around managing that transition. Yeah, and that transition in the relationship, and I know that certainly, from my experience, we put a lot of effort into exit interviews, understanding and do a lot of that. And things like alumni organizations or groups in organizations, or are things

that organizations try and do, but they don't always do it very well. So it's like, how to have a good ending, yeah, and a good goodbye. So I think yeah, and I think that is that is really important actually, because

a lot of the time of volunteering, we are also tuning in very much to people's emotions and feelings. Yeah. So I'm not saying that all of volunteering is just about feelings, but you know that is that part, and part of that enjoyment, that impact, that connection to your cause, is often about feelings and emotions, and we need to pay attention to that at the point of the ending as well. We want it. We want to leave the door open, yeah, close the door. Yeah. You want to leave the door open. And you want people to go away feeling like there has been

this is the end of a chapter, but it's not the end of the relationship. Yes, yes. You know what? James, what's that? There's a podcast in that. I think there is the whole concept of leaving and how to have a good goodbye. I like that. We call it a good goodbye, yeah? Because I think it's important, and I don't think we talk about it enough. Okay, so we've, as always, monstrously gone over time. Thank you, Laura, for probably making us think a bit more. Yeah, it's kind of made me realize there's a lot more to the subject, even than I thought. Yeah, so that's cool. James sort of sits. It's your first foray into into volunteer management. I think it's fascinating. I mean, you know, I'm drawn towards the, I guess, people side of leadership and management for a lot of reasons that you've spoken about and about creating good working lives and experiences for the people, but that do work, and a lot of things that you've talked about, I think contribute to that well. And I think leaders and managers and paid organizations can create better outcomes for themselves and people by adopting some of these things. So I thought it was really interesting. Okay, well, hopefully our listeners have had something to take away, whether they're working in the volunteer sector or not. Laura, you've obviously got a huge amount of experience in this area, and also knowledge, if people want to get in touch, you on Twitter. Is there? We always tell people to come and talk to us about Twitter. What's your do? You have a handle. So I have a handle which is, L A u h 70 7l, a U H 77 and I have a website, which is, I. I'm Laura Hamilton consulting.com

and I'm also on LinkedIn. Lovely. Feel free to connect with me and also ask any questions that you have, and I guess Thank you for having me, because I also,

I also think it's really positive for there to be more learning between the different kind of fields of like HR and volunteer management. And I think in some ways they're too they exist too separately. They're in separate domains. And there's a lot of useful learning for volunteer managers from the world of people management generally, and leadership and vice versa. Yeah. And we, I think even when you and I were running a Twitter conversation with someone from the CIPD, right, yeah, you said, Oh, this would this would be really good. We should be doing more of this. So yes, so maybe we'll come back here. Maybe we should bring the CIPD along next time. Maybe. Okay, so I think that's going to wrap it up for us. Yes, James, what do we have to do to wrap up? What we need to do is we need to say, you can get in touch with us on our website. You can tweet us at the WoW podcast. You can sign up for our Wow mail, wow Mail website, yep, and it'd be really good if you guys left us a review on iTunes. Give us stars, whatever you think that would be great. And I think that's it. Okay. So thank you, Laura,