E093: Playfulness at Work

Well, it's very appropriate for a Friday afternoon in our mood, 'cause we are talking about laughter and play at work. We have special guests, Stephanie Wheeler and Theresa Layman, who are coaches who have an in-depth experience of bringing these things to life with teens. And you know what? They're actually writing a book on the subject as well, which is really cool. It's really great timing. So we're gonna get to benefit from some of their great research in our upcoming conversation. So let us jump in and get on with that.

Okay, so here we are in the main body of this podcast, and today we are speaking to Stephanie and Theresa, and we're speaking about laughter and playfulness, and what they are and what they mean, and the roles that they play in our workplaces and our experiences at work. Before we do that though, would you be able to introduce yourselves to the audience and say a little bit more about yourselves and your background? Maybe Stephanie, you could go first, and then Theresa. So yes, I'm a leadership and personal development coach.

We met doing a master's of coaching behavioral change at Henry Business School, and a previous work chapter, I was a lawyer working in the city and with Sotheby's, and now concentrating on working one-to-one, working with teams, and interested in a number of things, one of them being play and playfulness and laughter. It was my dissertation topic for my master's, I've published since then, and Theresa and I are now working on a book on playfulness and coaching conversations, what it looks like, what can it contribute, and what might get in the way. Yep, and I've worked with technical teams probably over the last 25 years in large blue chip and gaming companies.

As Steph mentioned, I studied at Henry and we have graduated now with our master's in coaching, and one of my big passions is how to work with teams and individuals to create not only high performing teams, but thriving teams, and I think this is a real area in need and lots of opportunity in this space, so delighted to be involved in this project with Steph and to be able to talk to you guys today. Great, well it's exciting to have you, it's such a fascinating subject as well. Laughter and play are clearly things that are important certainly in the formative years of our lives and throughout the rest of our lives.

I guess if we start with some really basics, can you just say a couple words about laughter and play and what they are maybe? I know it sounds like a basic question, but what is laughter and why do we do it and what is play and why do we play? Or why are we playful perhaps? Do you know part of me wishes it was such a basic question? Once you start getting into it, it's horribly complicated, but it's delightful, but it isn't actually as straightforward as you think it would be.

So everybody has an idea, this is laughter, this is play, but actually when you get into the nitty gritty and trying to define it and measure it and what variables there are, it's really complex, but also really simple, right? Because you know it when you're experiencing it, and I think one of the, sometimes when something is really difficult, it's easier to think about what it's not. And I think we're interested in this space because we're trying to get away from the very cognitive, very kind of logical A plus B equals C approach, but actually trying to get into that space where we're playing with ideas basically.

And you're kind of in that part of your brain where you're accessing different ideas, different memories, different knowledge that you don't necessarily do in other states of mind. So the play and the laughter could be behavioral evidence that you're in that space. So we're not trying to make people laugh. I think that would terrify both of us. But equally, you know, when it's working, you can see in the behavior that, okay, these people are now in a playful space. Now we get to the really good stuff, the creation, the innovation, the kind of collaboration. How interesting.

And I'll let Theresa jump in too, but I think partly kind of it's once you understand biologically what's going on when you're playing and laughing, then it's kind of almost easier to then try and define it because you know kind of what you're talking about. I feel a little bit like a politician trying to evade the answer. So how much is a pint of milk? That's what I wanna know.

I think picking up on, you know, if you think about those, you know, the states of play and what we're kind of suggesting and wanting to share is that this is a very credible way of working things to incorporate within the workplace, particularly as complexity is increasing, increasing need for collaboration, co-creation, all of these things and play can have a role in that. Laughter is a by-product and just touching on laughter, you know, some interesting points that I've picked up having shared some of the research now and getting more to grips with this stuff with Stephanie is a lovely psychologist, a lady called Sophie Scott.

She does a lot of work in this area, sharing that, you know, back in the day, Charles Darwin, you know, really saw laughter as what, you know, very key emotion, but through psychology, and science, you know, most of the focus has been on more of the negative emotions, you know, to fix particular problems. And you can understand why, but maybe we're missing a trick here. So we're trying to shine the light here to say, actually, you know, if there's an increasing need, maybe this can play a role. And some of the facts around laughter is again, quite interesting. You're 30 times more likely to laugh with others than you are alone. Not excluded. We've all been in those situations.

Barbara Fredrickson, again, a lovely, you know, done a huge amount of work in this space and it's, the space is growing in its science and the support from psychologists and people like that. And again, it's showing that when you're accessing these states, you have an increased ability to broaden and build, which is really the states that you want to be in. And yet we can only laugh or, or really fully play when we have, you know, psychological safety and we feel comfortable within a group.

Otherwise it becomes a bit fake or disingenuous or, or, you know, so it, as Steph says, you know, these are markers and evidence that, these states once accessed brings you into the higher lines, which is the states you want to be in for coca. Certainly, you know, reflecting on my personal experience of the different places that I've worked, I know that the places that felt the most productive, energetic, creative, you know, adaptable, connected to others were places where there was permission to laugh and to play and to, to throw things around and hold things lightly and experiment and prod and suggest things in a, in a really open way.

So, so it's great to, to hear the sort of science behind some of that thinking as well in terms of what that laughter, I mean, you said it's, it's, we should be looking for laughter as a signal for something else happening underneath to the state that we want to be in. In terms of that laughter, does it, does it affect us? Some of the biological stuff you talked about, some of the biological impacts and what kind of stuff does laughter really do for us? How does it affect us or play for that matter? Can we take a step back first and take a step at play?

And if we look at the work of a man called Panksepp, and he was known as the rat tickler, because he spent the first half of his career looking at abandonment and you know, where there isn't attachment and all really sad things. And you decided to spend the second half of his career looking at the joy and the happiness and then after in psychology. And lovely. And, and he, he did his work with rats because basically he had to go into the kind of that core part of the brain where you can't experiment on the humans without doing them some lasting life-changing damage.

So he worked with rats and he, he ended up being known as the rat tickler because he had a laboratory of laughing rats, which you could actually hear, you could see it on YouTube. If you, if you Google laughing rats, you at a certain frequency and they're being tickled and they laugh. And what he found is that we have a very deep in the instinctual part of the mammalian brain are several, seven in fact, neural circuitries, which are, which we share with other mammals. And one of those is play. So, you know, it's not some little nice thing that we have on top. It's deep in our circuitry. And the, the laughter are going to be tried to, it gets quite complicated.

So it's easier to see play and laughter separately because otherwise it gets a little bit of a muddle. But if you, so if you think of that kind of deep embedded neural circuitry, which one of those is play. So we have, we're, we're deeply wired to play. And then this law makes sense in a minute when you get to step back, but it could see that layer first and then look at the work of somebody called Porges who developed polyvagal theory, which is very relevant to trauma. So not what you'd necessarily expect when you're talking about, but, you know, play playfulness. But he was, so he was looking at our peripheral nervous system.

So this is the nervous system outside of our, outside of our spinal cord and our brain. So, you know, the other, the nervous system and that is two systems, the sympathetic, which is the fight or flight, which we all know about, you know, kind of protection from immediate danger. So physically we sweat or our heartbeat goes up, we breathe more rapidly. And in that state of mind, because it's protection from immediate danger, we lose access to subtle, complex memories and the kind of the more kind of intricate bits of our thinking. Okay. So that's your one state.

And then you have another state, which is, which he identified as a third stage, which is the shutdown circuit, which where you can't escape, you can't fight. And you, we share this with the stone fish. We just got to go, we just basically freeze because there's no other option available. And as you can imagine in that state, so, you know, for example, in a podcast, somebody asks you a question and you just cannot answer. So that's the freeze mode. And then he was interested in looking at the parasympathetic, the counterbalance to the fight or flight, which is arrest and digest. So now we're kind of, we're physically, we're relaxed, we're feeling safe. Our body can arrest, it can digest.

And we then have access to the higher cortical functions. So we can think in a more diverse way and we can express ourselves and we can behave in more diverse ways. And so if we think of those as the three states the arrest and digest state is a social connection state. And it's in that state that we play. And in that state, that's when we connect with other people and the laughter comes into it because the laughter is also having physiological effect. So it's producing kind of good hormones. You know, the kind of the anti-stress hormones, which are reducing our stress, but also the endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, all the feel good stuff, which also connects us to other people.

So that's why this is so important because if we're in the space of collaboration and teamwork and accessing those bits in our brain, where the good stuff is, that's the state we want to be in. it gets easier if you work on it, given that, or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I would very much imagine so. I mean, having worked with particularly tech teams, but you know, in the business sector, high tech companies, you see those teams that have an ability to interact, share ideas, build and broaden, bounce things around. You mentioned it yourself James, you can feel it. You can feel that in the group.

And when you don't have that, that's when things can get trickier and it is a bit of an enigma. You know, why is it that some teams have this, some teams don't, and you know, what's the alchemy behind it? And this is what this research is looking into more and more. But you know, Google, you know, with Amy Edmonton's work, you know, shared, you know, big, big role that psychological safety has to play in this. So, you know, that's a factor. And the more safe you feel, you know, the more, more able you are to kick around those, you know, or say the things that are, you might think are silly or whatever. And you know, the team can grab that and build on it.

And again, you know, if you're looking, I think play, you can really see as a bedfellow to creation and having worked with tech teams for so many years, either creating new technical games or solutions or working in high tech support, the teams that do better and the people that do better are those that are able to, I call it kind of, you know, highly engaged, but with a sense of ease, they can remain resilient even, you know, in tough under pressure situations. And this idea of being able to play with ideas, play with scenarios, hold things objectively, you know, all seem to be components of that. Wow.

And that's, you just mentioned something that I'm really interested in there, which is this idea that's that maybe, is it possible to both laugh and be playful whilst also sort of being very focused? And I guess traditionally the word would be serious and actually getting stuff done. And what do those look like when they happen sort of alongside each other? Such an interesting question, isn't it? And there's a really good book by a lady called Di Gammage, and she's a play therapist and does a lot of work in this particular space. And in there she shares around, you know, this, this dualistic approach between play and work and touches on very much.

And if you think about us as children, when we're growing up, you know, at school work is very serious. You know, you do your lessons, you know, God forbid you bring any play into that, you know, and then play is outside and that's where you go and have some relief from the work. You know, you go and be silly and all of that. And she said having that dualistic approach maybe isn't as helpful and maybe to think of things more in a continuum. And in here, she suggests from, you know, various different works of different people in this space to think of play as part of a continuum. And at the other end of the continuum, it isn't work, you know, so it doesn't play versus work. It's a spectrum.

And at the end it's depression. And so play versus depression or on that continuum. And I thought that was, for me, that was a big insight because, you know, I mean, ideally, you know, in companies, you know, are we aiming for depressed employees? No. And innately, we know the more people can access and be at ease, but highly engaged. This is particularly when you're working with intellectual teams that need to be able to create and co-create. If they're in flight or fights or too pushed into that serious fear-based, some of those things in the older management styles, the different workforces might've been more appropriate.

And that shuts down the thinking, you know, you go into automatic mode and you stop thinking in a creative manner, particularly for a sustained period of time. And do you, and this may not be covered in your research, but do you have any thoughts on whether that differs depending on the subject of the work? So where people are working on a more serious project or topic? And are you serious? And it's probably not the right word, but something that maybe has safety ramifications or data protection ramifications or something like that versus something that might be creation of, um, entertainment material online or something like that. Yeah. And again, she, she goes into this quite heavily.

Um, I think in any situation where you need to create and think up different options and solutions, there is a role of playing with ideas. Um, and by that, I kind of mean, um, by play and ability to step back. Um, and role model, uh, different scenarios. Um, and I think you can do that in a very focused way. If you look at the way, um, you know, as an army wife for, for 15 years and my, my husband's left the forces now, but I've grown up around military, uh, most of my life.

Um, and you can see this, uh, excuse the pun playing out in, in, in a lot of their operations from the minute an army recruit there is a whole raft of support and engagement to develop that person, to be able to, um, collaborate and work as a team. And there are elements you can see within the forces of play, uh, not only from sports, you know, there's a heavy emphasis there on sports for the team building abilities and trying those things out, but also, um, you know, the forces will go out on exercise where, effectively they're, they're war gaming and they're, they're practicing.

And I think, you know, this, you can kind of see that in that sphere, you know, probably, you know, in the NHS, I'm not so close to the NHS, but there must be situations there where they are playing with scenarios, um, in business. Um, I've always been struck by the idea that we, apart from team building, most of the companies, and I've worked for some terrific companies, with huge budgets for personal development of employees, there is an assumption that people know how to collaborate and work together, um, and, and effectively play together, you know, that collaboration synergy.

Um, and I think that, you know, we're missing a trick there, um, in the business sector and we could be learning a lot from all the other sectors and what they're doing. So in a roundabout way, I'm saying, I think, you know, even in the most serious situations, this ability to move into a playful state has a role and you can hold it with, you know, focus and seriousness. Yeah.

And certainly my experience, um, at dealing with teams in the nonprofit sector, we've been dealing with some quite serious, uh, potentially, you know, fairly impactful decision-making where you can create an environment where they can literally play with the options and interact with them in different ways amongst this, the sort of groups and stuff creates just a completely different environment because it allows them to feel like they can be really exploratory with the ideas around how it might be shaped. But I don't like, just like you said, we, we see it very, very rarely.

Um, you mentioned there are a couple of different ways that teams that are able to do this and, and, and have this ability to play together are different from teams that don't. Are there any other differences? that you see either around, um, whether they are more productive or more engaged or anything like that? Yeah. Um, and, and I've noticed, well, you know, Steph, you probably got some, you know, quite a rich, a lot of things to add to this, but just, just to that, that quick point, Jane, um, yeah.

Um, again, working with high tech support teams, the ability to step back and really look at what the problem is in a focused way, play with the scenarios, invariably means that they're better equipped to make, um, clearer decisions. Um, even if sometimes it means, um, a better outcome would be to go for a longterm option, but for now we'll do a fixed pack solution. It just means that everyone's a bit more clear and transparent and things are better thought through. Uh, so in that sense, you know, productivity is improved. Um, and I'll let Steph jump in as well, cause I could be itching to share a few things that, um, I actually just wanted to go back to the previous point to those.

I was, I was wanting to get my two friends in worth about, about this point that it's interesting what you said, Jane, but I think there's still, um, I kind of an assumption that when we're talking about play, we're talking about fun and frugality and, and, and, you know, children at play and kind of, um, silliness. And it just made me think about when I was saying at the beginning that, you know, research into adult playfulness, is still quite young. Um, but we are now getting to the point where various models of playfulness are being proposed. And one of them splits playfulness into four different categories. And one of them is serious playfulness.

And it's this idea of holding complexity and enjoying difficult problems. Um, and, and that's different, different from whimsical or silly or other directed playfulness, which are the other categories. And they're, they're each individual. So they're not a little bit of this and a little bit of that. They're just different types of faithfulness. And, and really in the research and the writing originally, I was just really interested in this serious playfulness. Um, so how can we deal with serious issues and serious problems, but hold onto that lightness and that perspective.

Um, and just as Teresa was saying, you know, it's, it's that ability to step out of, to become your observing self, the observing team to, to have a little bit of distance, but equally creating that psychological safety because we are seeing other team members without our preconceptions and our pre ideas of who they are and what they are, but we're really taking a step back and seeing things more for what they really are rather than just through our lens. Um, um, co-authored a research paper recently on Lego series play and the impact of Lego series play on teams and their collaboration, psychological, psychological safety and cohesion.

So, you know, your question, what's the difference between the teams who play. I just want to pull it back. To expanding what we understand by play, you know, and expanding, you know, we're not necessarily talking about, I have horrible memories of team building events. I was a lawyer where we were all having fun and actually I just wanted to go home and die. It was awful. I just really wanted to pull us away from, you know, any preconceived ideas of what we immediately think about a play at a work context. Cause I think part of the reason Teresa and I are so interested and passionate about this is that we had some pretty I don't know. It might be exaggeration for me scarring.

It took me a long time to recover from. So, you know, and, and the facilitators there thought, you know, we were playing as all good team building, but Ooh, gosh, you know, you know, for me it was, it was, it wasn't a good experience. Um, so I kind of want to challenge a little bit about what we might understand by playing a work context.

Um, so now that I've completely diverted that conversation, coming back to the second question, yes, I think you do see difference in teams because I think you do see a difference in, in their ability to step out of themselves a little bit and step out of their teams and have more awareness of the team as a system and the bigger system within the, which the team works. Um, and, and you can combine it with all sorts of things. You know, Teresa and I are also very interested in the whole space of psychological safety and compassion, self-compassion and compassion for others.

And we were talking the other day saying, isn't that funny how we're both interested in playfulness and yet we're both really interested in, in compassion and, and, and that space. Um, but they're not, you know, when we go back to physically and kind of physiologically what's happening to us, it makes sense because actually, you know, when we're in that social engagement state, we're also connecting with others. We're also compassionate towards it as empathetic. And, uh, you know, there's so much research and positive psychology now to kind of say that the, you know, the, the, the, the, the happier teams, the more engaged teams, the more kind of compassionate teams for each other.

They are more productive, you know, they, they, they are more resilient. Um, so I think it's in that space that, that play, if we kind of give it a wider definition, um, sits. One of the things that, um, that I love to do, and it's kind of my primary objective when I'm working is to, to get to the stage where I'm sort of connectedly collaboratively problem solving with others. And for me, that, that feels kind of like if I'm doing a well that's playing and I feel like I can joke with that, but it's, um, it's about creativity.

It's about challenging to find new things, you know, things like, uh, in a, in a, in outside of the work context, things like, uh, escape rooms or puzzle games and all those things. That's the type of play that I, I, I thrive on or I feel hugely rewarding. Um, and trying to create that space in work is really good for, for me when it happens. Is that the type of thing that you class as play within that earlier desire to separate it from just the more frivolous play? I think absolutely.

And, and, you know, the feeling that you get when you've got a group, you know, even whether it's with one other or a team, um, you know, it is the best feeling, you know, so, you know, that pretty much you can go into any situation and be able to solve, sort, create, do it, you know, that that's the magic and, um, uh, very much about, helping teams get to that and facilitate that is, is, is the whole point of, of this and trying to move the industry forward. So, you know, more people have access to it. Yeah, definitely. Work is fun as opposed to work as drudge, right?

I mean, we, you can do really boring things in really fun ways, or you can do really interesting things in massively boring ways, you know, and I've, I've had the privilege and the unfortunateness of having to do both. Yeah. Um, and I guess, you know, also just in the wider context of where we are now, you know, we're, we're, as we're talking, we're in August, you know, COVID and, um, most people still working from home and being isolated and, you know, that has a two-prong effect, you know, anxiety levels are much higher.

Um, the things that we could, I was listening on the radio the other day, it was a professor, I think it was just published a book on the case for oxytocin and, you know, the, the, love hormone and the hormone that we normally get from touch and from, you know, if you think back to primates, they get that from grooming, you know, so they're physically grooming each other and that releases oxytocin. We get it from hugs and from handshakes and high fives and all this. And, and with all this social, um, uh, see, this is my, this is my stone fish brain, social isolation. There we go. Social isolation. Um, we're not getting that, you know, but, but laughter does produce, um, oxytocin as well.

It's not as good as, but, but so actually, and also, so that's one challenge with the increased anxiety we have, you know, with COVID and the other is working from home that we're working and living in the same space, you know? So before we, we had a little bit more differentiation. So if we were very stressed at work, we could at least get home and, and, um, and, and have a kind of a balance. So I think it's even more important now when work and, and, and home and everything is so intertwined and we are more isolated from friends and colleagues. That we make space for this and that we acknowledge this as well.

And, you know, we, we actively are conscious of the benefits that can bring both to our sanity, frankly, nevermind about flourishing, but our sanity and our productivity, you know, and, and, you know, how well we engage at work and how well we work with others. And in the stuff that you've done and the stuff that you've looked at, do you see, um, correlation or relationship between things like the laughter or the playfulness of a team, let's say, and the longer-term engagement, motivation, retention, and what about sort of more physical things for individuals?

Is there, do you see links similar to those we see with positive psychology, where we see links to things like lifespan or life expectancy and things like that? Do you see those connections at all in the things you've seen? Um, well, in, in, in some areas, I think this is an area to, to really, you know, it's a great question. Um, it's one of those. Um, so I think there's, there's more, to be, um, linked to that, um, to really, you know, answer that fully. Um, but what we are seeing, you know, so Google's, you know, project Aristotle, uh, with psychological safety is, is so important.

Um, you can also see, you know, uh, when you look at the work of thriving, a key component that is learning and growth. And we know that play is, is one of our fundamental like, like Steph was saying, you know, it's innately built ability, you know, most of us have experienced play in our lives and have that ability, not all of us, you know, sorry to say, but, you know, and sometimes it hasn't been developed, you know, from early childhood. And, um, but most of us have that capability and through school and things like that, it's been kind of educated out of us or not seen as, um, you know, the permission for it or the credibility. Um, but play itself is our fun.

One of our fundamental fundamental ways to, to grow and learn and to change. And if you think about, uh, individuals and teams, companies, you know, needing to be able to change, adapt, grow continually, particularly in this day and age with increased complexity and all the rest of it. Um, this ability to play, you know, becomes even more, more and more, I think interesting and what is being missed by not catering for it. Um, and thriving, uh, a lot of, you know, research is increasing in that area.

And as they will, they're all kind of coming in into the four, I think in it, particularly, you know, in the last decade or so, and increasingly now in this decade, um, with the future generations coming through, um, thriving is saying about, thriving is saying about, um, the more that teams and individuals have a sense of thriving. And again, there's a lot of links there with engagement. Um, the company that I've been working with for several years, um, we did a lot around engagements and some of the factors there. Um, and I think some of the temptations can be if we, if we, you know, put in a foosball table and a slide and make the of people, then we've done the job. Right.

You will have fun now. Right. That kind of thing. Right. And if anything that can move, if, if, if everything else isn't congruent with this, you know, at the intention level, the beliefs, the behaviors, the values, if it feels fake or incongruent or tick box straight away, that could cause a huge amount of disengagement. And, you know, some of those kind of forced team building, you know, Steph was talking about that, you know, both of us have had, you know, horrifying team building experiences that I think most people can relate to. Um, you know, it kind of has the reverse effect.

So I think, you know, this is really opening up the conversation saying, um, at the intention level, the belief level, what are the small things, the genuine things, you know, play can be invited. It can't be forced. And with that same, it fits with engagement, you know, it's again, engagement can't be forced. I can't force you to be engaged, but I can invite you, you know, and it's, it's that kind of thing. I've got, um, I've got, uh, another question that's, that's front of my mind, which may just be me waffling. Let's see. Um, you've talked about complexity a few times in what you're doing and sort of linking complexity into this.

One of the senses that I get when we think about bits of complexity, and an increasingly complex world is that we have, uh, sometimes a predisposition to hold on to things too tightly, to over-invest in our own decisions and to maybe attribute ego or other things like that to, um, our decision making processes. And that in turn makes it harder for us to move and change and then reduces our agility and all of those things. Do you think play fullness supports increased agility within teams and an ability to, to let go and hold things slightly and not be judged and in, in such does it prepare organizations more for, you know, to use a bit of a silly phrase for the VUCA world, right.

Does that fit within where you think this stuff fits? You can tell. Leaning forward it's time. I'll say a little bit, and then I know you're going to build on it, but if, if we look at, okay. So, so there is a bit of research on adult playfulness. There's even less research on laughter and there's even less research on humor because humor is difficult to research because you're looking at what's going on inside the head rather than behavior that you can measure and so on. But what we do know with humor, one of the areas of the brain that is really active, um, is the, okay, my laughing is terrible. I'm not even going to try. It's okay. I won't try.

Um, it's the part of your brain that, um, if you think of our brain, not as some sort of, um, uh, kind of master computer that filters everything out and then comes up with the ideal question. But if you think of it instead as, of, of different modules that are all coming up with ideas and all coming up with solutions and, and our brain has an area in it that, um, that basically regulates this. So it'll cut, it can amp up or amp down different parts of the brains that are coming up with ideas, which is why laughter, humor play is really great for insight because we're, we're giving a chance for those other noises, other bits of information to come out.

Um, and you know, we've all been in that situation where you kind of think you, you think you've got the answer, but the wrong answer keeps coming into your head. You know, whether you're doing a crossword or whatever. And it happens to me a lot, but I think that that's wrong, but it makes some space in my brain for the right answer. I know it's in there. So, so that, that bit gets spread like a muscle when, when, um, you know, when we're, when we access the humor, the laughter, the play.

So physiologically, neurology, I'm not a neuroscientist, as you can tell from my great definition of brain parts, but, but it's putting it as in a space where actually, as you say, there's certain ideas that we hold onto because we're invested in them or they're kind of tied to, you know, importance for us for various reasons because of where they came from or, you know, who got the idea. We're learning to actually quieten that down a bit and give chance for other ideas to pop out other memories, other information. Um, so do we sell?

And that's lovely stuff because that, that really kind of helps, you know, I think we've all been in those situations with teams where, you know, for whatever reason, we're not able to access the thoughts because we're, you know, under pressure within the team itself or with whatever the task is at hand. Or for whatever reason, we have the idea, but we don't feel willing to share it, you know, and this is where this psychological safety, you know, plays such a part and where, you know, I think teams could really invest time and effort so that everyone, you know, if they have the idea, they're not sitting on it.

And this is where this we're agile teams, you know, particularly in the whole VUCA world, um, and an ability to be able to rapidly change, hold ideas and pivot, you know, particularly with bigger companies, they have such a challenge pivoting because like you said, you know, individual ego, security, all of that stuff gets kind of mixed in and with the capability of play, focus play or more, you know, free play, let's have said this muscle, this capability, you know, if we build that within individuals and teams, you know, and team of teams, it means that we can be more comfortable with stepping into the observing self, the observing team to let go of the ego.

So, you know, if I come up with a bright idea, it isn't Teresa's bright idea. It's an idea that's thrown into the pots and how it stands in relation to what it is we need to get done. And the need of the time is separate to the high value and status within the team. Um, and you see this a lot, particularly in new teams or, uh, with certain individuals, um, you know, it can really stop the flow of, of solution in, because you can see straight away, they can be quite hurt or, you know, or, or angry frustrated because the ego is tied up with this idea. As soon as you think, um, it becomes a lot easier.

So for most of my career as you know, working in agile with software development teams with individuals and, and solution teams, as soon as you spell this out, it's, it's quite a simple thing. As soon as you just name it, teams are able to start to work with it and cater for it. You know, they don't need any fancy equipment or psychological, you know, tools and techniques. As soon as you spell it out, they're equipped. And there's lovely techniques that can help build on that. So to make things more objective and less subjective.

And that leads us really nicely into kind of, uh, hopefully what's quite useful for some of our listeners who are out there thinking, wow, this sounds really quite both transformative and important. Could you, could you give our listeners a little bit of an idea of what it might look like, uh, where a team is using laughter and play and creating space for that in their work? Yeah. Shall I start Steph and build on? So, um, I think, you know, simple is always best in my world, you know, the world's too complex as it is.

So, you know, coming up with, with fancy things, you know, that get put in a drawer somewhere or expensive things that people, you know, are a bit precious about, you know, I think it's looking at what can we simply do? We know that this is an innate ability. It feels right. Um, I think some of the key things is, you know, to, to, to focus on it more, to give a bit more permission, maybe develop a better understanding and to start. So can we start simply? Yes. You know, whether it's with you and another, you and a team, you know, and saying, look, you know, for this moment of time, what can we hold objectively? What is it we want to think about?

And it could be something quite simple, something complex. You know, a lot of teams that you work with in innovation and creativity, they have kind of the blue sky thinking sessions, but really just creating a moment in time where you can step back, even if it's just a 10 minutes or an hour, um, and starting to, to play. Um, and by that, it could be, there's a bit of a goal, you know, it's not just free play. It's, it's, there's a focused element to it. Maybe there are some characteristics that you want to bring in. Um, such as, um, you know, what are the things that we want to feel more of?

Um, so you could be using this to dial up more psychological safety in your team, if you feel that's needed or whatever else is the need, or you could be looking at a particular problem you want to solve or something that you want to create, whatever the focal is, and then looking at different ways to develop. So, but with the contracting in play, using that word a lot now, I've noticed. Um, so that, that contract in saying, look, you know, the outcome might be not what we expect. You know, this is one of the things with play, you know, it, it can lead us to areas and outcomes that, you know, we can't anticipate before we start. So let's get that upfront. What is our expectations of this?

Um, and, and really kind of talking about that and making it as kind of simple and easy as possible. Um, some tools and techniques, simple white boarding or drawing, getting things down. Sometimes it's not always the words we're saying, you know, words can be, you know, helpful, but also sometimes people struggle with words to find the right words. So a drawing, painting a picture, even though, you know, most of us can't draw doesn't matter, you know, let's just get the idea, you know, Lego, you know, stuff. So I'm sure, you know, you'll build on this stuff with all the work you've done in the past. You know, bringing, um, a box of Lego.

I mean, the number of times I've done that with teams, you know, men in their mid forties, I've never seen so gleeful to get involved and engaged and with very little instruction, they can really model their worlds. So you can model how things are currently. Uh, how would you like them to be huge insights are coming out there, but all of these abilities are bringing in the ability to step back and observe from distance, which in a way is letting go of the ego. Um, so there's a few bits, hopefully that that helps stuff. Did you want to kind of add to that?

Yeah, I was just thinking in terms of practical things, and I'm just thinking in terms of how we work with clients, but it's, it's not a one size fits all. So, you know, for some, it might be, I haven't mentioned it, but I'm also a laughter yoga leader. So for some, it might literally just be coming together as a team and laughing for no reason. You know, just to, just to connect, especially again, you know, in the context that we're in, um, so it's not a one size fits all. It's kind of what you need, you know, what level is your psychological state yet?

And what we haven't talked about, you know, the potential damage you can do with playing playfulness and humor, you know, so, you know, we talk a lot about authenticity and you can't force somebody, but equally, um, you know, if we don't share the same, um, you know, the same lenses from which we kind of share our humor in our play, that can be very isolating for some members of the team. Um, you know, you know, with diversity inclusion, you know, if some humor can be used in a very hurtful way, you know, to, to people who feel in the minority of the team.

And so I think there isn't a one size fits all, which, which is, you know, difficult because I want to offer something practical, but it does very, it depends on the team you're talking about, you know, whether you go from, as you say, you know, kind of some well led sessions in house using post-its or using anything that will kind of get you into that observing space rather than the over identification space and mindful that you're creating safety, that you're creating, you know, psychological safety in terms of not that we're talking about deep emotional issues that we don't want to, but you know, that I'm allowed to use my imagination.

I'm allowed to come up with ideas without being penalized because it sounds stupid or, you know, I will be judged by it. Um, and there's a whole range and then you get into a whole kind of, you know, Lego series play facilitation days where you're kind of where you really get to know what the values of the team are and you really nailed that and you really understand each other so that when you come into situations of uncertainty, you all know what values you're working from and therefore you're, you're, you have a decision making process already in place.

Um, so, so yeah, I wish I could say, but it's, it's easy and it's difficult, which I guess takes us right back to the beginning that, you know, it's, it's so easy. But it's also quite complex, which is why it's so interesting and exciting. Can I just add to that though? Is that right? Just, just one bit that I think we haven't really touched on, which is, um, you know, in, in a playfulness space, you know, we do a lot of, um, one-to-one coaching, uh, both within businesses and privately, um, and bringing in more the playful elements. Um, it can help release a lot of emotions.

So while we're today, we're talking about laughter, you know, one of the more positive, um, emotions with, with all sorts of benefits, um, holding a playful space, um, the ability to step back and observe, um, can really help for a whole range of things. And in that space we can cover and release and, and open up, uh, the ability to cater for all emotions, because really this idea of positive and negative emotions, you know, sometimes isn't helpful. We have emotions and, uh, the ability to release them helps us move forward. And if they're repressed or suppressed that can cause blocks and barriers, which again can really kind of muck up, you know, the dynamics of a team or individuals.

So, um, sometimes it sounds a bit strange, but you know, you can have a playful session, you know, and some people might be in tears for a moment, you know, they're releasing. Um, as well as, you know, other emotions too. And you mentioned, so it's interesting cause you, you mentioned words around sort of blockers and barriers to teams, gents generally, and how things can crop up. What, what blocks or what gets in the way of teams playing? Why don't, why don't we just do this?

Yeah, I would imagine most people, you know, um, would be saying initially time, effort, um, let's keep doing the same or what we've, what we've been taught, a lot of the management books that we followed, you know, were written, you know, off the work of the industrial revolution, you know? And so a lot of the work isn't really updating. Um, so I think, you know, we are going through a bit of a shift and hopefully this work that we're doing now is helping move some of that forward. But I think that that would be the original, you know, look at some of the key top of mind things, you know, this is so important.

We don't have time to muck about and play, you know, let's be serious and let's get in here and, and, you know, work hard and focus, you know, um, and let's crack the whip, you know, that, that some of that stuff is probably, um, you know, a part of that. Um, I think some of the other parts that we touched on were around permission and understanding and getting a better picture of, you know, the role that, you know, play isn't just for the creative arts or for, you know, musicians jamming or, you know, things that are a bit more frivolous in nature, you know, they have, you know, they have, um, you know, it has a role, uh, no matter what you're doing or trying to create.

Um, so I think there's something around permission and the culture and what is permissive by the management and leadership. So I think leaders have a role to play there. They can do, do more. And I don't mean, you know, go around laughing your heads off, you know, in the, in the corridor, you know, um, but, you know, looking at what is right for you and the culture and the people that you're working with. Part. Uh, you can only be playful if you're fully present.

A lot of our teams, individuals, we know that stress, um, you know, and I'm not talking about good stress, you know, the use stress, but you know, if people are moving into distress or overwhelm, um, you know, we know that that impinges and affects our ability to create, do think all the good stuff that we want our employees to do. Um, and if they're anxious, they're depressed, you know, they're not in the present moment. They're either worried about stuff that's going to happen or worried about the junk that's happened before. Um, so developing this capability of being present, you can see how that really nits into play, um, resilience and, and all of those other key things.

Just to add to that, you know, you re um, Jane, you were saying earlier about, um, you know, is it possible to be playful and look at serious topics? Um, and you know, we talked about, that depends on your definition of play and playfulness, but I think there is also potentially, you know, a fear that if I let my, my employees be playful and think playfully, I'm losing control because, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm giving them the autonomy to kind of think creatively thinking inevitably. And that as a leader, if you're, if you're using the kind of older leadership models can be quite threatening because then what's your place?

Um, you know, so, so I think that's a potential barrier and sometimes it's not realizing how important it is. And like we said before, you know, the play, the work, we keep them separate. Um, and also not knowing how to do it, you know, maybe actually the person responsible for, for, for bringing more playful attitudes to work has their own blocks, you know, their own, um, uh, perceptions of how they can access playfulness and what's stopping them. Maybe they feel a little bit silly or they feel, you know, judged or they feel that credibility is undermined. Um, so I think, you know, the blockers are on the personal level, um, on the cultural level and also a bit on the systemic level as well.

Um, but I don't want to end on that because I think they're all surmountable. When I was going to jump in, um, just a second ago, what I was going to actually ask was if we've got people listening, say we've got, uh, leaders of smaller, medium sized teams and they'd like the idea of this, but, but they feel maybe nervous about the idea of trying to be playful or, or don't really know what to do with this or feel maybe they're, they're uncertain about how they can do this. Well, what, what thoughts would you have for them? Are there any, you know, simple things you'd be able to share with them to help them step forward a little bit? Any advice for them? Yeah.

And part of it, sometimes I think we miss the obvious, you know, sometimes I'm just thinking about just having a conversation with the people you work with. Just kind of saying, listen, you know, I've heard of this stuff. It's good. What do we think? What are people comfortable with? What can we try? Where, where are the barriers? What are people not comfortable with? You know, you don't want to be David Brent from the office, you know, you know, but, but he was too insecure and he, he, he didn't have the courage to kind of say, I want this to be a happy place. How do we do it together? He felt he needed to impose that on people. So, you know, that's the obvious, isn't it?

To take a step back and actually just talk and listen and see what ideas other people have, rather than thinking you as a leader has to have to come up with all the ideas and solutions. Teresa, you looked like you were going to, Yeah. So I think, you know, and that really touches on, you know, servant leadership and, and, you know, when you are managing intellectual teams and wanting them to create, you know, your role as a leader shifts and your abilities then, and your focus is to, what is it that the team needs, in order to, to do what they need to do for the company and how as a leader can I facilitate that? And I think that, you know, that, that creates a very different, atmosphere.

Um, so, you know, I think exactly like you said, have the conversation, you know, get some pens and paper out, anything that can make the subjective objective, something that we can build together, good old whiteboard, you know, in zoom, you know, just draw on a bit of paper and put it to the camera. You know, a lot of teams are working in zoom at the moment. We're doing a lot of facilitation with teams on zoom, you know, and it's working very well because it is all about this, communicating and, you know, some of the key things that you mentioned there Steph was, you know, listening.

Big, big skill, you know, wonderful, you know, ability being present, really hearing what is the person saying, what is the team saying? Um, you know, these are all qualities that, you know, come into play, but you can just do every day. You know, it doesn't have to be under the label of, right. Let's just do a play session now. folks, you know, for the next 20 minutes, that'll probably move you straight into stone, but you know, kind of bring in some of this subtle stuff in curiosity, massive quality and curiosity. That's positive. You know, tell me more about that. Where is it leading us? Um, all of those traits, I think have a part. Great. Well, thank you.

Um, in the interest of time, I'm going to wrap this up. We've had a great conversation there just before we finished though. anything else you'd like to say about how people can learn more about what you do or get in touch? Um, well, they can, um, contact, contact me on LinkedIn and, um, and the contact points for, for both of us on this. Um, so Stephanie Wheeler on LinkedIn, um, or, um, my email address is on my website, which is Stephanie Wheeler.co.uk. Um, and yeah, we're very happy to have a conversation with somebody, you know, people who are curious and would like to know more, um, very happy. As you can tell, we're, we're very passionate about this.

So contacting us and we can always point them to resources if, if, if that's what they're needing or, you know, we're happy to have a conversation. That's great. Yeah. So we'll, we'll share, um, we'll share those details when we publish the podcast. Um, and hopefully when the book's out, we'll be able to share that as well with people. That sounds like a fun project. Yeah. Thank you guys very much. Okay. So you are back in the room with us. That was our conversation. with Stephanie and Teresa and I thought there was some great stuff in there. Some, some really, um, really interesting subjects and, and quite a lot of content to take away, uh, which is always exciting.

Did anything stand out for you specifically, Jane, that you'd like to reflect on? Well, I want to give a little shout out something that's not exactly on topic, which is that I think I might now refer to certain moments as stonefish moments. I really enjoyed that. But also I think, um, I feel like the thing that strikes me again is the, the damage that has been done to the way we work and our experience of work by this prevailing narrative of the sort of last part of the 20th century around work has to be hard and diligent and focused, but not, not necessarily in a good way. Like it should be something to be disciplined and suffered.

Um, and somehow that idea that that met that narrative of management and managerialism has, has sort of affected our ability to enjoy and to be playful and to make space and time to, to laugh and to, to share in playful experiences, I think, um, just really hit me. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it really draws to life. The fact that we think of work as just that, you know, something that's effortful and I guess less reward than we're used to and that kind of stuff. Um, I guess a couple of things stood out for me. One was around the importance of all the range of emotion. So, so it was interesting. A few times we were speaking about, you know, the benefits of, of work and laughter and playfulness.

Um, but it was noted that it's not just those more positive emotions that we need to focus on. We need to give space to the full range of emotions and that use of languages as positive and negative emotions isn't always helpful because as I think it was Theresa said, those are all just emotions that we feel and, and that's a very human thing. So I think that's powerful. Um, and one other thing that I thought was interesting was that, um, that pardon me, one of the thing that I thought was interesting was that when we're speaking about, you know, using play and laughter and work, we sometimes have to be considerate of others as well because there can be some damage to it.

So if we have playfulness that's not inclusive, that can be hurtful. And I just think that's a really kind of insightful reflection of the way work can be at times. And it's on us all to bear that in mind and to bring some of that inclusivity into the way we play. That makes total sense to me. Um, and, uh, regular listeners will have noticed it's a bit longer than most of our interview episodes. And I guess that's because we felt as we were talking through it, there was just so much to explore and it was quite a different topic from what we normally talk about.