E135 – People Centered Leadership (w Chris Jones)

Hello. This is James, and this is Jane, and here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. What do we got today? Jane, well, today we are talking to

the CEO of England athletics, Chris Jones, all about people centered leadership. And this is a particularly close to my heart interview, because Chris is one of my former bosses.

Oh, how exciting. This is gonna be fun, isn't it?

Okay? So here we are in the main body of today's podcast, and we've got a really, really exciting guest lined up and a really fun conversation. Today we're gonna be speaking to Chris Jones, who's the Chief Executive of England athletics, and we're gonna be talking about people centered leadership and some of the lessons he's learned over his career in this space, before we get into some of those questions, though, Chris, would you be able to introduce yourself to the audience and say a bit about yourself and your career? Yeah, thanks

very much, James, good to see you both. Nice to see you. Jane, again, I've been at England athletics for nearly 15 years, and I've been CEO for nearly 10 years. Prior to that time, I worked in central government with Sport England, which is the government's arm, leading on sport physical activity, distribution of lottery funds. And prior to that, in local government in East Anglia. And then I, on coming out of university, did some work for the local authority and primary school sports coordination and in secondary education, working on sport and peeing and coaching. Very fortunate to be working in a sport like athletics, Blue Ribbon event of the Olympic Paralympic movement, and delighted to have the responsibility for driving forward England athletics, it's employees working with the board of directors and servicing a sport that is nearly 200,000 strong in terms of our registered athletes in 13 150 member clubs, all driven by volunteers up and down the land, offering opportunities for all abilities, all ages, all backgrounds, and very humbled by that, that privilege

as a keen runner, I noticed not a good runner. I've described myself as a keen runner. It's great to great to get a chance to speak to you and then to share some of your background. One of the things that I really think shines through in your background is that combination of sports and the whole world of sports and athletics through your career, gradually increasing, it more and more with leadership. And I think there are lessons from the world of coaching and sports and from sports in itself, from a leadership perspective, as well as from leading organizations. And I think that sort of the two hats that you have give you really quite an insight into leadership in itself. And I think that's where I'd like to start. If we think about leadership, what is it that you think leadership really means? How does leadership manifest itself to you? What does it mean to you?

I mean, there are a number of words that spring to mind, responsibility, accountability, the importance of ensuring that people feel safe and that they trust you. Integrity is another word that I would describe just getting back to the point around people feeling safe, no one produces their best work if they feel like they're being chased by a tiger. So I think it's really incumbent on all leaders in whatever sector, to create an environment where people feel safe that they can produce their best work, whether that be employees within the organization, or whether that be volunteers working in volunteer led structures, creating that environment where people can bring their best and have a license to operate, I think is really, really important. And I think it's important to remember where you originated from as well. I've described my career in a very kind of short series of bullet points there, starting with coaching in a community setting, working in primary schools, and I didn't really have a plan to become a CEO one day. It just seems to have happened. And I've always subscribed to the mantra, if you do the right things, and you subscribe by a values led approach, and you have a clear purpose, then good things will happen. And I think it's really important to remember as leaders, that you were. Working at a grassroots level once, and it's important to keep in connection with that and keep in touch with that, because you can then make better decisions and relate to what's happening at all different levels of in my case, sport, and I think that's really important that people can understand that you understand what the challenges, what challenges they're facing, day in, day out, week in, week out, so that you're you're all batting for them. You're in their corner, if you like.

That's lovely to bring in a sports metaphor there as well. That seems very apt for what we're doing. Thank you. A lot of what you spoke about there talked about the the way it feels in an organization, and that sense of safety. And you talked as well about, you know, remembering that we've all been at the starting stages of careers about grassroots peace itself. And for me, empathy comes out. And some of what you're describing there when you think about taking this really sort of people centered approach to leadership that, I think is, is a phrase you're aware of and relate to. What does it really mean to you to have that people at the core of what you think about US leadership? Could you just elaborate on that a little bit?

Without people, you can't achieve anything. For me, it's the most precious. It's the most precious asset. If I can use that word, I'm not even sure I'm comfortable with that word, but I've used it now, so I'll stick with it, because I can't think of anything better. But people can produce wonderful things if they're given the bandwidth and the freedom and flexibility to be able to balance their work and their life commitments, to be happy and to bring their best self to the working environment, and we've got a responsibility of as leaders to create a culture that allows that to happen. As leaders, we are nothing without good people around us. I've never quite understood a situation where leaders would promote people who are just like them, or individuals who would just nod and agree with them all the time. It's kind of pretty alien to me. My view is that you surround yourself with often with people who are more skilled than you, but certainly those that bring a different perspective and a different outlook to things, because with difference and diversity, you produce better decisions. And I know in in my heart, in my head, that I have weak weaknesses. I think everyone has weaknesses and strengths and areas for development, and I think being cognizant of that and then surrounding yourself with people who will compliment and and fill in for those areas of development and weaknesses is really, really important. So you mentioned that empathy

for me, that is, I would say, if you were to rank the important qualities of good leaders, I would say it's probably number one. I would say empathy and the ability to relate to people on a whole number of levels is so important because take an employee, for instance, when you employ someone. You don't just get someone on the payroll and they you don't assign a number to them. You get the human being. You get the human being. You get warts and all. And if they spend any demonstrable time with you, you'll get to know a lot about them as individuals, their their backstory, their friends, their families, their circumstances, and that, for me, is really important as a leader, because to understand that and to empathize with those individuals and to create an environment where they can bring their best, as I've said before, is so important, and I think you will get that paid back in much more. And this notion of family within a working environment is very important to me, we often refer to the England athletics family that we're all in. It brought together through our love and passion for driving forward our sport. But we all, if we relate back to the Maslow hierarchy of needs. We all need to be loved. We all need to feel like we belong, that we are secure, and we have a responsibility of as leaders in organizations to create that environment. We're all on this journey from cradle to grave. Hierarchy or status or leadership does not come with a badge. It comes with the ability for an individual to earn someone else's trust and for them to have faith in you as an individual, or a collection of leaders on your senior exec team. And as I say, I think you have to earn that, and the way in which you can earn that. Is being transparent, open, approachable, empathetic, and one of the team, you know, even, even when the organization achieves great things, it might be, you know, hitting a profit target, if you work in that that sector or that niche, it might be achieving recognition or an award for something that you've done as an organization. You know people will recognize that the leaders have overseen a process that ultimately reflects a healthy culture and an organization where you just think things are happening that are positive here, and there must be some reason for that, and leaders are often silent. They're not overt there. They're not in your face. People will know that things are happening because there's good leadership there. I used to think that good leaders were the ones that shouted the loudest. I know now know that to be incorrect, and leadership comes in different forms, and I often I know that when you go to an organization, you can tell pretty quickly when you meet the individuals or when you enter the building, if they're based in an office, whether you're entering the domain of what is a healthy culture, you sense it. You feel it through the exchanges that you get or have with the individuals. You just sense there's something very special happening. Then conversely, that works the other way as well. You can tell pretty quickly where there's a an unhealthy culture with fraught with tension and divisiveness and what have you. And I think that really is down to leadership and the environment and the culture that the leader or leaders create.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of content in there that's, that's really helpful. I think that you know, a lot of what you speak about there, to me, speaks to phrases like character and leadership and the sort of, you know, the character of a person that's presented in them. And you talked about, you know, leadership not being about shouting the loudest. It's not about, you know, necessarily always taking recognition for yourself. It's not, it's not about those stronger, more visible things all the time. It's about shaping how it feels and the impact that it has on those around you, and it's a lot of what you described there makes me think of helping others be at their best and be their best in that group setting, which I think shapes really strong cultures, as you alluded to. You've worked in a range of different places, and I'm sure throughout your career, you've got a chance to work with and speak to some really, really great leaders from the world of sports and outside of sport as well. When, when you think about your relationship with leadership and the different people that you've met or read about, is there anyone that stands out to you that sort of inspires you as a person to be a better leader or to lead in a certain way?

There are numerous individuals I'll spare their blushes without mentioning them personally. But I've learned as much from volunteers in local sport as I have from people leading multi million pound sports organizations. I think there are a number of transferable skills. How you lead your volunteer sports club or group at a local level, requires good leadership. It requires people intelligence, emotional intelligence, the ability to involve people in decision making, the ability to encourage people to shape and buy into a vision, the ability to know when to get involved and when not to get involved and when to let go and empower and, you know, trust people to get on with stuff, and occasionally, when they get it wrong, I think you learn as much from getting stuff wrong as you do from getting it right, you know. And I think some people need to learn how to fail to then succeed. And I've seen numerous examples of that in local sport from countless volunteers that are leading our community sports at a local level. There are some individuals that I have sought counsel and mentorship from during my career. I think you're always learning, as soon as you think you've got it cracked, then you're probably a step or two away from falling off the edge. I think you must continue to be hungry to learn and surrounding yourself, not only with good people, as I mentioned, in your staff structures, but also sound surrounding yourself with people on your personal board, if you like, in your personal boardroom is really, really important individuals that you can approach to have a conversation in a safe space. Might be about a work related challenge. It might be about managing a specific relationship, or it could be just a. Out just help with your own personal circumstances and where you go in the future, and planning out your destiny and those kind of things. Having that that counsel in that safe space is really important. I've probably got three or four individuals that I will call on on a regular basis who I trust and respect. But I mean further afield, if you look at global leadership, and you look at some of the exemplars now, Nelson Mandela is someone I have huge regard and respect for in terms of the way in which he united South Africa and principle based leadership, clear purpose, values led, higher plane leadership for the greater good, Barack Obama, individuals like that. That's the kind of leadership that that I am attracted to that really motivates me and inspires me.

That's that's some really lovely examples of practical ways to think about leadership. So thank you for that. It'd be really interesting to know. So in your organization, you've obviously been working to develop a more people centered approach. What does that look like at England athletics, what if someone went in and they looked at like the way people work, or the policies of the way that you were? How would it show up? How would they know that they were in an organization that really cared about people, putting people at

the center? So we, we obviously have an executive team of five, department leads, if you like, who report into me. It's quite a flat structure. England athletics, a relatively small organization, only around 50 people. And we're a not for profit, and we're in the business of supporting and developing people, largely reliant on volunteers. So consultation and engagement is so important on on many different levels, because, as I've said before, difference diversity of opinion helps to make better decisions. So the executive team of England Athletics will often use our employee consultation forum that we've set up about four or five years ago now to help shape some of the key decisions that we make around the environment of England athletics. How the kind of conditions in which people are working? How do we make England athletics a better, more productive, happier place to be? So I chair the employee consultation form. We meet monthly, and we'll discuss a whole manner of issues around things like office layout, working from home. How can we enhance working conditions at home, support individuals in this new new normal to be able to manage work and life. And you know, there are numerous ways in which we've introduced additional benefits and support packages to help staff in that in that position, but we will use the employee for him to to bounce ideas off and test concepts. And as I said, before you come up with a better outcome, we will consult on numerous things. Got a consultation going at the moment with our staff around lease cars, company cars, traditionally, we've allocated a car to specific individuals in the organization, because they travel a lot, competitions, conferences, going to see clubs and volunteers, training course and what have you. Obviously, since COVID, the world has changed. We're doing much more online. We've fully embraced digital working. Got a blended approach now between face to face activity, which in some circumstances is the best mode of delivery, combined with online learning, which helps people because they have to travel as far they can save cost on patching and what have you so blended working is here to stay with digital at the heart of that approach. So of course, that's changed our requirement for company cars. But rather than saying we're going from something to nothing, it's important to consult with staff to come up with an outcome that works for all you know, staff awards. We have a staff award program on a regular basis for people who've gone above and beyond that's voted for by their peers. So the employee consultation forum oversees that process, and we've we also use the employee consultation forum to help shape our staff conference program. So we'll you know where the where, where the event is held, the key, key themes, the key focus, and generally, to get a mood on the street of the organization we introduced about three months ago now, a mechanism called Friday pulse, which I believe we were the first sports organization to use its weekly happiness survey, and we, on average, have about between 85 and 95% completion rate from the organization, which I believe is good and it's a mechanism for us as senior leaders in the employee consultation forum to measure happiness. Across the organization, because it might seem pretty straightforward, productivity, in terms of financials and deliverables, will have a correlation with the happiness and mood of the organization. So if the two, you can often see a clear pattern, lack of productivity, lack of happiness. So we've introduced that, and the dashboard that you will get from that, that we can then talk through with our board of directors, for instance, I think is really important. But as part of that Friday pulse consultation, we ask people to rate their happiness during the working week out of what from one to five, five being very happy. And then there's an opportunity for people using the functionality to be able to congratulate people in the organization or to thank them for something they've done during that week, to share a frustration, share an idea, and then they get a golden question that everyone answers. So one week, it could be mountains or beaches, in terms of holidays, introvert, extrovert, and so on and so forth. And it's provided a base of conversation within teams, but also then for the exec and the employee forum to think, well, what does that mean for us, an organization? What do we need to do to support our people, to address happiness? Because well being for me, and particularly mental health, in the context of well being, I think, quite rightly, as as has grown in prominence, in importance, over the last few years, and for us as an organization, it is very important to to us. I've suffered with my own mental health challenges since I was very young. And I think as leaders, it's important to create a safe space for others to feel that it's okay not to be okay. So we've invested not only in Friday pulse, but we've now signed up to champion health, which is to quote Jack green, their their sales director, it's it's the Netflix of well being. So it's a tool, then, of resources, a toolkit for staff to access, then to help address their happiness and their well being, nutrition plans, fitness plans, mindfulness, yoga, Pilates and various other things that they can access. We also allocate, we introduce three mental health well being annual leave days on top of the statutory leave allocation. For me, it wasn't about the three days. It's about the principal. And it's about the principal is saying this is okay to take time out. We also offer volunteer leave days in addition to statutory leave allocations, and we have trained everyone in mental health awareness, and we have Mental Health First Aiders in each of the departments across the organization. Externally, we coordinate a mental health well being campaign called hashtag, run and talk, which is to interact with mental health week, and we have over 1000 volunteer mental health champions in our clubs and groups that work as part of that campaign to raise the profile of running and how much it can do to to address and support people with mental health challenges. We've also, in recent weeks, through consultation with with staff, introduced a series of Let's Talk mental health Q and A's and panel discussions during 2021 perhaps even more so now than ever coming out of COVID. I think there's a responsibility on this as leaders and those working within organizations such as England athletics to to raise the profile and to create a safe support network for people to talk about these challenges and to share and learn together. So so hopefully that answers some of your question about what we're doing in that, in that, in that people centered space.

That's really helpful. Thank you, and it would be really interesting, just that's quite a lot, and there's loads there that people can take away, but it would be interesting to get your thoughts on what do you think is different about what it feels like to work at somewhere like your organization, versus maybe an organization that doesn't take such a people centered approach? What is it? What's the difference in how you would feel if you're working there? Do you think? Or maybe you can share perspectives of your team?

Oh, well, straight off, off the top of my head, humor is so important. Humor is really important to me. I think it's important for our organization. We're not an autocratic, hierarchical organization. We're pretty flat structure organization. I know everyone in the organization. They know me. They probably know my strengths. They know my frustrating foibles as a leader as well. And to be honest, I'm pretty open and heart on my sleeve about that that stuff as well. I think that's really important so that you can have an honest conversation with people. I think that we enjoy each other's company. We work hard. We, as I say, we only have around 50 staff servicing a sport that's nearly 200,000 strong in terms of our membership in a normal. Year, normal year, obviously, being pre COVID, where we're on the recovery path. In that respect, fun is one of our values. Some people might say fun. I've not heard that as a corporate value, but I think it's really important. I think our values align to the behaviors that we've all agreed, we've developed together as a staff are fundamentally important for creating the culture and the environment that we all want, that we feel like we own. And that's not just being driven by the CEO, writing them down on a page and sticking them on a wall, and everyone then feels that they have to adhere to it. That's collective responsibility. We're all in this as teammates, as Neo family, so our values of fun, integrity, inspiration, inclusivity, you know, we live by we we have to, because that is what they're there for. And then when you're recruiting individuals, you know, I often, I often think too much stock is put on technical competence, you know, what about the individual, what about what they're going to bring to the organization, in terms of personality, character, you know, add in close, you know, proximity to those values I've mentioned already, you know, so, so that's, that's really important. The the other, the other thing that I, I think is really important in the context of leadership. Frustratingly, I still, I still sense, this is my personal opinion that leadership positions of responsibility at executive level far too often people recruit on technical competence rather than leadership capabilities. And of course, you know, people need to learn. So leadership is a journey, but I've never quite understood that just because you were a good commercial director, finance director, Development Director, ops director does not necessarily. It doesn't mean you're going to be a really good leader of people, and I'm not quite sure whether organizations, or those leading the recruitment search for those organizations fully understand that and are cognizant of it. And I think that's something that really needs to be addressed. Because I think in 2021 things have changed from what we expected 1020, 30 years ago, the millennials will expect different things from their leaders in their working environment, and we need to be open and cognizant of that and move with the times. And I think the leadership requisite, leadership requirements, have changed, and people centric, leadership and creating an environment where people can prosper and thrive is so important. We've seen great examples over the last 12 months, as we've gone through COVID, of superb leadership. And then conversely, we've seen other examples of, perhaps not so people centric leadership. And yeah,

that's how I feel. Thanks for that. I want to you mentioned earlier you've you've been in this role almost 10 years. And you also mentioned just at the end there, about, you know, people grow and change and can learn things. What? How would you describe your leadership approach 10 years ago versus now? And what's changed?

It's interesting because we put all our staff through insights profiling, so anyone who's listening in will understands in insights, color based, preferences, conscious and subconscious, red, yellow, green and blue. Red being your kind of my words kind of fierce. Up an atom director, qualities and blue being quite analytical. Process driven. Yellow, very charismatic and kind of warm and gregarious and what have you. And then then green is very kind of empathetic, people centric, you know, warm, supportive, what have you. And of course, you dial up these preferences from time to time, and they can change. I remember first doing insights back in 2016, 17, so I was four years into the role or so, and it was prior to a big restructure internally, and we've gone through another restructure since then, and probably other circumstances involving people within the organization, people who have had their own personal challenges. We we've had, sadly, deaths within the organization of people who have were working for us or had worked for us. And when I first did the insights profile, I was, I was red dominant, followed by yellow and then green and blue. So it's nice to know or reassuring for people to know that our finance director is very blue, so there you are, balance. But then I repeated it after we'd gone through the restructure in 2017 so it was almost a year later, and I'd become very green and very yellow, and my red had dialed down completely. And then we've just repeated it again with all staff in the organization as a basis for, you know, helping us as managers, but helping team cohesion, because we had another another restructure. Last daughter, we were just coming out of COVID, so we thought the time was right. And I'm still very green, very yellow, and my red is dialed down completely. That doesn't mean it's not there, but I've I've changed. I've evolved, and I think the circumstances around you and the experiences that you go through change you. And so I would say I am less. I'm less, not less up an atom, if you like, but I am not as quick, probably, to draw conclusions and make decisions as I once was. My engaging, involving side has certainly grown in presence during my tenure in the role. And when you first take on a chief executive role or a leadership position, you're desperate to prove your your worth, your competence, to deal with the insecurities that exist. Am I good enough to do this? And I still go through those emotions. Now, the imposter syndrome kind of plagues me, if you like, but certainly when you're appointed, you're keen to make an impression and to prove your worth, and over time, you realize that people have got this, you know, you've create. You create a good team around you. You create a positive culture. You get a good strategy in place which is shaped by everyone. And then ultimately you lead and you and you and you become more of a work the pieces around the chessboard, rather than actually rolling the sleeves up and actually doing the do. However, I will temper that by saying I think it's really important to keep your hand in and to show people that you are still capable of doing the do, and that you just don't talk the talk. You walk as well, and you will support people. So it's really important to do that. We had our age group championships in Bedford at the weekend, which was a different event coming out of COVID, of course, with quite a few restrictions, but I sat on the athlete accreditation desk with a couple of my colleagues during the day on Saturday. It was fantastic. Just Just brilliant, just doing some real stuff. You know, because you talk a lot about strategy and about culture, what have you, all important things, but it's really important to keep your hand in. I also coach locally within a local rugby club under sixteens team with my son, and that that's that's great. That is a great release, and also important, as I said at the start of the podcast, to keep yourself connected with what's happening in grassroots sport.

That's a lovely, lovely set of stories in there, and I completely relate to your story of that changing set of insights, colors and things like that. My own journey started as sunshine, yellow, maximum yellow, yellow, yellow. And then I got a bit more senior in an organization that was very red, and I became orangey, ready. And, you know, not very happy with myself, if I was going to be honest, but I was being red because I don't know, I kind of had to do that. And I've moved back through green, sorry, through, you know, back towards that green space, you know, with the space that I have in the work that I'm doing now, I'm much more in that, you know, sort of domain. And it's it, it at the minute, feels richer and fuller and more considered and and more, as if it enables me to reach better outcomes, which is great anyway. I just thought I'd say, but, um, if we think about, you know, the the organization that you've got, what are some of the real challenges that you face? We've talked about your development. We've talked about what leadership means to you. What are some of the actual challenges that you face? Into

succession planning for key individuals is a challenge. We have a pretty low turnover rate if you put restructures to one side. And we've gone through a couple during the last three or four years, mainly driven by strategic direction, but the last one in COVID was purely financially driven because we had some, some real challenges last year, as many organizations did, because some of our revenue streams have cut off, and we, we took the plunge, if you like, to restructure in the autumn to try and deal with the issue, which was very painful on an emotional level for for many people, thankfully, I believe all of those individuals have now secured employment elsewhere, which is good, good to know. But certainly I would say succession planning are key individuals, because ultimately, you need to develop talent from within. You need to put in place the necessary development plans for those individuals to progress. And I also think you've got to you've got a responsibility to prepare people for challenges outside of the organization as well. You know, people will will come, they'll go, and people will come back as well. And and we've got a responsibility to society in general to produce good employees that can help other organized. Organizations. But of course, good human beings as well, and that, for me, is really important. So someone's future might not lie within your own organization, but elsewhere. So professional development, ongoing development, is really important. So succession planning for key individuals, I think, is really important, especially in smaller organizations where institutional memory and knowledge is such that you need to retain it somewhere, so archiving that and storing that and paying it forward is really important financially for us as an organization. We're a not for profit. You know, we're less than 10 million pound turnover business. We're akin to a charity in many respects. In fact, we're due to set up a charitable foundation this year focused on track and field and increasing participation amongst young people. So we're excited by that, but financially, we're around 30% dependent on public funding through Sport England. We're very grateful for that. They're a key partner of ours, but at one stage, we were upwards of 70 80% dependent on them. So we've done really well in growing our own revenue streams. But of course, there's no real certainty on what that funding looks like beyond 2021 because there's a comprehensive spending review back end of this year, not quite sure what that outcome will be until September time. And membership, of course, has taken a hit. Membership provides around 40% in a normal year of our income, we were down by 25% this time in 2021 signs are promising. Now that we've come gradually out of lockdown. We have now we're about 60% ahead of where we were this time last year in terms of members, and we've managed to re engage around 25% of those laps members as well. So the numbers are moving northwards again, so things look more stable in that respect. And of course, the commercial market is challenging because of everything we've been through. So finding sponsors, retaining sponsors, is a challenge. So I'd say, I'd say financially, that is, that is a challenge for us. So succession planning and financial continuity and stability, I guess, the other challenge, which is in many respects, a pleasant challenge, you know, how do we support our existing volunteer base? We're working in a sport that is largely dependent on volunteers, so very different from other industries, in that, you know, without the volunteers, it's impossible to do to support the sport, if you like, because the sport is largely led by volunteers. We're only 50 strong, as I say, less than 10 million pound turnover business servicing a sport that is near 200,000 registered athletes, 1800 member clubs and bodies. You know, they're around 7.1 million people running in England each month, we influence about half a million people outside of our core members to take part. You know, we've got 150,000 participants of our social running program run together, which comprises 2800 running groups across the country, led by qualified leaders. We train them, but they're volunteers, many of them, and we license in a normal year, around 4000 road races, again, largely delivered by volunteers. Course, the commercial and charitable events market is very important to our sport, the big events, but many of those 4000 events, for millions of runners, are run by volunteers. So we're in the business, if you like, of people, not only our staff, but in the the business of supporting the people who support the people. And so that is a challenge, because tailoring your service and your resource in an appropriate way, in a focused way, knowing you have not a lot of it, is really important. So working with and through people, inspiring, supporting, enabling, facilitating, empowering. All those words that you use are so important, and again, going back to our corporate values, adhering to our values, so that people buy into you as an organization, that they believe you, they trust you. We don't always get it right. There's stuff. There's quite a bit that we we could have got. We could have done better. And we're all we'll, we'll always be in that situation, because we're, we're human, we're fallible, you know, and all those things. But as long as what we're doing is born out of the right intent and done in the right way, then we've got a chance of inspiring people, to inspire others, and that is a challenge. You know, how? How do you you know, volunteers aren't employees. They are there through the goodness of their heart and their passion for the sport to make a difference. So how do we support those that are in the system, and how do we generate the next generation of volunteers to come through removing barriers to ensure an inclusive and diverse sport where where everyone can play a part in in driving our sport forward

into the future. You spoke at the in part of that question about challenges around to Section succession planning and helping your team develop. And you spoke as well about. Volunteers and how you know, working with volunteers is a really different it's a sort of different relationship than you have with employees. What's it like helping your volunteers develop? What kind of things do you do that influence and help your volunteers become more, maybe passionate or engaged or productive at what they do? How do you help your volunteers about that?

Well, we're just about to launch in the next few weeks, our 2021 volunteer recognition program, our awards program across the nine English regions, which has been running since 2007 eight as a concept, really important part of the year where we celebrate the work of volunteers. So we'll be inviting nominations from across the country to recognize those individuals who are bastions, if you like, the champions of volunteering, role models representing countless 1000s of people giving up their time for the benefit of others, as coaches, as leaders, officials and other volunteers on Club committees and what have you. So, so that's a program we coordinate, and we will, we will often run some recruitment campaigns to help clubs and groups secure the services of new volunteers. Of course, we run education and training programs qualifications so that people can can receive accreditation, if you like, to reach a minimum standard to then be able to go and deliver safely with insurance and and those kind of support support systems. We run webinars, conferences, forums that connect volunteers with other volunteers, leaders in clubs with other leaders. We ran a leadership program that we piloted in the North West of England a couple of years back. We now rolled that out in the East of England, there are plans to make that nationwide approach moving forward. And we we involve volunteers, of course, in shaping many of our strategies that ultimately benefit or affect volunteers and athletes. So I think that's really important. You know, that consultative aspect of of what we do so almost everything that we do involves volunteers. I mean, all our board directors, for instance, are are involved in in supporting the staff and driving forward the business. But a proportion of those directors come from the sport their representative directors elected by our members or coming through our council system, and that's really, really important, because they are the eyes, the ears, the barometer of the mood of the sport, the health of the sport at local level. And when we're shaping strategies and programs, it's important that they are based on the needs of the sport and and understanding the health of the sport is fundamentally important. So, so yeah, there are probably numerous other ways that, if our head of clubs and participation was sat next to me, would remind me of or be kicking me at this moment in time because I forgotten to mention it. But hopefully that gives a bit of a flavor

there that does Thank you, and I can just visualize that now. Okay, I'm going to sneak in one more question before James. I can see James looking at the clock. Look, Chris, we know that in the nonprofit sports sector, there's loads of people, brilliant people, working at middle management level, right? And they're sitting there and they're thinking about preparing for leadership. They're thinking about, how do they make that next move? And I guess, love to know what you think they could be doing, or what advice you would give them so that they could step into that role when they get it, and be ready and be better prepared for that first major leadership role that they take. I'll come back to the personal board, board room

suggestion I made earlier, having a group of individuals who perhaps are further along in their leadership journey to be able to kind of counsel, support, coach, mentor, I think, is really important, not being frightened of putting yourself out there and approaching people that you've always respected and just dropping them an email, giving them a call and saying, Could I spend half an hour, an hour with you, just to unpick some of your philosophies, your ideology, etc, etc. I think I did that myself. Certainly, when I started in this role, I was the phone was hot as I was trying not to reinvent the wheel, but assimilate all the best ideas from different sources. Because I think my cynical view is I don't think there are any new ideas. I just think that people are very, very clever. Some people in taking the best aspects of different concepts and merging them into something brilliant. I so I think that's the same with leadership. Ultimately, there is no rule book on it or kind of guide. It's a bit like being a parent, really. People will tell you what they think, but ultimately, I suppose, akin to being a teacher as well. You go through your teacher qualification and you learn to teach when you put in front of a class of 30 kids, and learn how to differentiate delivery and what have. You, it's a bit like that with leadership, really. I mean, I am, I do subscribe to, you know, investing in your own education. You know, if you're fortunate enough to to have the opportunity to go and learn at colleges such as Ashridge, Cranfield, those kind of places, I think there's a lot of benefit from undertaking that kind of experience. I know some my colleagues have done MBAs to keep themselves fresh and to keep them on that on that leadership journey. So anyone who's got aspirations be a COO CEO, all those things, I think can help just be yourself, though. Don't try not to change too much in terms of what you like as a person, because, as I said before, a title doesn't give you respect. And at the end of the day, we're all on this journey through life together, we're all likely to end up in a similar, similar place. I think it's really important that you're authentic and you just stay being yourself throughout this. And my dad always used to say to me, be careful how you are with people. If you think in a hierarchical way, I don't normally, but if you bear with me, think, think how you are with people and how you treat people on the way up, because remember, you only one step away from coming all the way down again. And I think it's true, you know. So so I think remembering to be true to yourself and authentic and surround yourself with good people, because you haven't got all the answers yourself, and don't be too concerned about failing. I've been turned down for numerous jobs. I've applied for a lot of jobs, and have been turned down on numerous occasions prior to England athletics, and I've had one or two opportunities whilst I've been at England athletics, the the older and the older I get. I was going to say wiser or cynical, but I won't. I'm not so sure there is a kind of linear pathway here. You know, things happen sometimes. If you believe in fate or for a reason, doors will open. I do subscribe to the fact that if you keep your head down, you work hard, you're good to people, you live by your values, then things have a mysterious way of happening, but it won't always work in your favor. So I think resilience is important to stand by what you hold true, what is dear to you, and not be too concerned if you get a knock back or two, because you know the great rugby coach, Warren Gatland, I think he was quoted as saying, selection is just a matter of opinion. It's just someone's opinion. And you can have a good day, or you can have an off day. And that's the same for the people making the decisions as well. They can have a good day, they can have an off day. I've made great recruitment decisions, I think, in hindsight, looking back, not in isolation from other people, because there's always a panel there. But I've also made poor decisions. I've made poor decisions, and so you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong. But yeah, hope some of that helps.

Yeah, that's brilliant. There's some fantastic stuff in there about staying true to yourself and staying humble and staying in the moment and recognizing that we're all in that together. So I really like a lot of those messages, and I'm going to wrap things up there in the interest of time, but it's been fantastic to speak just before we go. Is there anything that people can do to learn more about you or learn more about England athletics, or even volunteer or anything like

that? England athletics.org? Is our website at England. Athletic is our Twitter handle, and we're on Facebook, Instagram, and I'm on LinkedIn. So, yeah, that's about it, really. I, you know, I'm quite a private person in many respects, whilst being quite gregarious in other regards, there lies the complexity of people, eh? I'm so so I'm Yeah, but that's probably enough. Brilliant.

Well, hopefully people check you out, and it's been a real pleasure to get to chat to you. So thank you so much for that. A real pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for being lovely. Thank you. Thank you. So

that was our conversation with Chris, and you were back in the room with us. Jane, anything that you'd like to reflect on and play back based on that?

Yeah, sure, crikey, there was a lot in there. Wasn't there. And I guess, I guess that's what really got me thinking as I was listening to Chris, was just how much time he appears to spend thinking about how to improve things and change things and and what the impact of the decisions that are being made and how they're being done, and the the level of detail, I guess, that he appears to think about and reflect on in order to make the right decision for the organization. And I guess, I guess that's the first time I've heard like, when I think about talking to CEOs and stuff is. It. He was very transparent with it. And I guess it made me think, well, that's a lot to think about in order to make decisions. Well, isn't

it? Yeah, and that sort of intentionality behind those and that, you know, that clarity of decision making through that process really shone through. A few other bits shown through as well. For me, as you said, there's a lot in there. One of the themes that came through that I really liked, that we didn't speak about, maybe so much explicitly, but for me, permeated the conversation was a theme of humility about, you know, not being the smartest person in the room, about not having all the right answers about, you know, not being the one directing, about not always taking the you know, recognition and praise, and that role of sort of humility and leadership and helping others achieve and deliver really, really shown for me, as well as that importance of the people around you, and the fact that as a leader, you need to have followers in order to lead. You know, if you're going to achieve anything through people, you need those people to be at their best and and if you can help them be at their best more often than then that is a lot of a core of your role. One thing he did say that that struck me was, was that piece around connecting with and understanding and knowing your people and and the importance of that, and it reminded me of a story My grandfather used to say he used to have a small chain of drug stores in America, you know, back in the day, in the 50s, you know, like pharmacies and soda and all that kind of kind of stuff, like, sort of mixed, general retail. And he used to say that if you have so many people that you don't know their names and you don't know the names of their children, then you've got too many people to manage yourself. And they need a union, and they need representation, and they need, you know, access to a voice, because in order to be an effective organization and to help these people have a great time and deliver well, they need to be connected and represented and all of that stuff. So that reminded me of

that, yeah, it's funny. You should say that, because when I think, obviously I've got, like, a slightly different perspective, not different from you, but I've got different contexts, because I worked with Chris for a few years a while back now, and I that piece about getting to know your people, that was what it felt like, like it felt like he knew you, he knew your context, and that I always remember leaving the organization and thinking, if I ever have to lead a team again, I want to make sure that I have all that as much information about each of them as he did about his team, because I think it helps you make really thoughtful decisions about individuals. And I remember leaving with that that, for me, was a really big thing, brilliant.

That sounds like a considerate and well thought through place to to have had a chance to work. Okay, on that basis, we're going to leave it there. So thank you very much.